Aggression vs Caution

[thanatos]

I'm noticing that a lot of the LNOE scenarios seem to be built on a very precarious balance between aggression and caution on the hero side. It seems like, as heroes press the attack more and rush to complete objectives, they stand a greater chance of securing the victory, but as they get nervous about losing and move more cautiously, they stand a greater risk of losing either by time-out or from being overwhelmed by zombies.

I'm curious if this is just unique to my group or if others have noticed this trend?

Some scenarios even seem to be custom-tailored to exploiting a player's cautious tendencies, such as Burn It To The Ground. We played this scenario last night, and I secured a victory for Zombie-kind by getting my heroes just a tad too gunshy so that, rather than keep a hero positioned to exploit zombie hunger and protect a building that was almost fully occupied, the players had a very brief lapse in judgment and moved out of range to try to heal up, giving me just enough time to slip the last two zombies into the last building.

Back to my curiosity, has anyone noticed a more cautious approach actually paying off for their heroes, or do my observations tend to hold true across the board?

[mqstout]

Some thoughts about aggression vs caution might vary. In my favorite scenario (Defend the Manor House), would you consider someone putting themselves in harm way to draw three zombies out of the house aggressive (endangering the hero) or cautious (trying to keep zombies out of the house)?

[thanatos]

In that case, it becomes a mix of aggression and caution - someone who is being *TOO* cautious might think they are recklessly endangering their hero with 3 fights, not realizing (or not admitting) that they have to exercise a bit of aggression/recklessness simply to survive the scenario.

I do think there has to be a balance between aggression and caution - obviously, if you give Johnny the garden shears and just tell him to blitz every turn, he won't last long, but by the same token, if you have a solid line of 2-4 zombies in all directions between the heroes and their last objective, it's worth the risk to try to reach the objective before time runs out.

[nitro9090]

In the end I think it all depends on what you mean by being cautious, because it is highly situational. If you have a character with 1 wound left, it is early in the game and you are asking them to run into a burning building it is hardly a question of caution. Because this could lose you manpower in the future and could end up giving the zombie player a zombie hero. But, if this was the burn it to the ground scenario towards the end of the game and would slow down the zombies for a turn while others prepare for the next step that may be your cautious option.

After playing the same scenario on the hero side 2 weeks ago, it was made clear to me early we couldn't defend every building on the map and we ended up giving up buildings left and right (we were down 5 by the 10th turn). Is that cautious or reckless? because by defending only a couple buildings we were given more time to search while the zombies took the buildings and we had less area to defend. (this allowed us to create our savior, sam the juggernaut, he had a med kit, garden shears and awesome rolls to match)

Sure, running from every fight especially if they will lose because if it, that is being a bit too cautious. But, if they are retreating to fight another day, they are just doing what is necessary.

[thegamelord]

For me and my players it always seems to come down to team work, if the players work in teams them seems to at least get close to winning, but then we always seem to have that one (or two) player(s) that don't think the others working fast enough and run off to search by themselves or have sudden run of bad rolls and try to horde the healing cards. When that happens the players become easy prey.
Usually I am the zombie player, but on the rare occasion I get to play as one of the heroes I do try to rally the others, and show them how to use cards to help one another ot.

[thanatos]

@Nitro: Good points - in the case I mentioned, the heroes just got a little careless, and I was the only one who noticed that I had two zombies ready to move in if someone didn't get into their hunger radius right away. Naturally, I said nothing, given that I was playing the zombies.

I have noticed in other games we've played, however, that when my players get a little too nervous, they tend to hole up inside buildings and just mill the hero deck to try to get better equipped, sometimes milling down to the point that, although they're now well equipped, even the most miraculous rolling streak in the world won't let them get past the zombie gauntlet that has been set up for them.

I guess that's more what I mean by caution vs aggression - sure, a little caution is necessary, but if you get too fearful, your caution can actually hurt you.

[nitro9090]

As bad as it sounds, the best fix for us when it comes to holing up too much has been to have a good leader on the hero team. Now, I am not saying he/she should take control of the game, but should put the situation in to perspective when things are grim and should be able to nudge the heroes out of their milling holes before it is too late. The funny thing is that usually the most experienced and best leader ends up playing the zombies (polls show that most people here end up being the zombie player and they are the ones who take the initiative and are probably best for leading), but if you have a regular crowd, that is in to the game, this issue should eventually fade away.

Another issue is the scenarios that require you to find certain items. The heroes' job is to sit there milling the deck and if what they need doesn't come up they are out of luck. Then, since they get overpowered in those games due to this tactic (even if they lose) I think it bleeds into other scenarios the idea that if I wait them out I should be strong enough to take on any number of zombies. It also has the drawback that even if they do find the scenario item they end up having to save the valuable item for the mission instead of using it which means they need to mill some more.

[Jarheadmartian]

I prefer aggression. As it helps to create a few windows of opportunity during the calm after the storm. Risking all to battle through to spawn pit to blow up can help turn the tide of the game in your favour. Plus you never know when the Zombies will play some horriffic cards and put restrictions on you, setting you back by 2 or 3 turns until your next window of opportunity.
As long as you've calculated the odds I think it's worth going for it. Just don't be reckless and gamble repeatedly when the odds are very much stacked up against you. Especially if the goal you're going for isn't really worth losing a hero for. And extra specially if it means you lose a powerful hero to end up becoming a very threatening Zombie Hero, like Sam. This has been learnt the hard way by myself when he got turned from a bite, chainsaw in hand, with a couple of heroes around him within swinging distance. RUNNNNN!!!!!

[Mechanik]

(08-02-2011 03:45 PM)nitro9090 Wrote:  Another issue is the scenarios that require you to find certain items. The heroes' job is to sit there milling the deck and if what they need doesn't come up they are out of luck. Then, since they get overpowered in those games due to this tactic (even if they lose) I think it bleeds into other scenarios the idea that if I wait them out I should be strong enough to take on any number of zombies. It also has the drawback that even if they do find the scenario item they end up having to save the valuable item for the mission instead of using it which means they need to mill some more.

Yeah, I will echo that. Unless it's a search scenario, then generally speaking, holing up for more than about four or five turns to find equipment usually results in a Hero loss. A lot of the time, even with Hero Starting Cards, the Heroes never seem satisfied with having an ok amount of equipment. "Well I know the Sheriff starts with a revolver but I want a chainsaw too!". They seem to forget that the designer added Hero Starting Cards for a reason... Because if you spend much time searching in that scenario, you will lose!

[Magravan]

I think that finding the ideal balance between aggression and caution in a given scenario is an important part of playing the heroes... Some require more, some less, and figuring out that balance for each scenario separately will improve your hero game play.