Less Luck.

[aprillo]

Hey so I had this idea...

A couple of my friends whom I play a lot of board games with have huge issues with heavy luck based games. They're more into heavy strategy games, like Clash of Cultures, Civilization, A Game of Thrones: The Board Game, Net Runner and the like. Needless to say as a result they're aren't the biggest fans of LNOE. They enjoy it thematically, but not so much mechanically.

So I've been working on creating a number of house rules, that won't change the likely hood of various game functions, such as break tests, ammo tests, movement, but will rather make them more predictable. I'm just in the early stages now, but I was wondering if once it's done, others might be interested in seeing it, and even giving me tips of other mechanics I could play with or ideas I may need to alter.

Any thoughts?

[ATOEtalGeek]

I think for my group we enjoy LNOE (and FFP in general) because of the luck aspect...the anything can happen random situation...and the "you wouldn't believe it if I told you" aspect of re-telling the story. I think we enjoy the FFP games as a getaway from the hard strategy games (which I'm a huge fan of, but don't get enough of). I probably wouldn't be interested in play-testing your idea but I can see that it is a matter of taste and others may clamor for it.

[brunoreturns]

I prefer luck to some degree myself, although I understand people who like the other approach. I simply like the element of surprise. Games like diplomacy, work no luck at all, I don't see how a group can play them more than once.

[mqstout]

Minimizing luck is good for some games, but not LNOE. LNOE would entirely lose its cinematic feel with luck eliminated.

[aprillo]

I agree to some extent. But I like playing with these guys, and I don't plan on eliminating the luck factor. Just lessening it, or even making it slightly more predictable.


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[Yogeh]

instead of limiting it we went with leting it work on a 4+ so your d get a 50/50 chance of luck working or not.
hope you get a lucky roll.

[UK_zombie]

(06-28-2014 05:34 PM)mqstout Wrote:  LNOE would entirely lose its cinematic feel with luck eliminated.

My thoughts are pretty much this.

[StayPuft]

To each his/her own for sure. However, in my personal view, taking away some of the luck aspect of this game I think takes away some of its appeal. To me, I think the best appeal of this game is that it combines luck and strategy. You can't rely completely on luck because a poor strategy (or a really good strategy from your opponent) could screw you over. Yet, at the same time, you can't rely completely on strategy either, as stuff may happen.

A big part of why I love this about this game is because it helps allow anybody to play. I hate games where you never stand a chance if you are a newbie playing against seasoned players. How you are you ever supposed to have fun in that case, and thereby how does anybody new ever get into the game.

I also feel that games that are 100% luck aren't as much fun either. *Cough*Life*Cough* LOL! Don't get me wrong, I love the game of Life. Still, it is such a pain in the @$$ when it seems to crap all over one person the whole game and give the other person all the lucky breaks.

To me, LNOE is a game that has the perfect balance of strategy AND luck. I, myself, wouldn't mess with that. But, if that works for you and your group, then enjoy.

[mqstout]

The best games are where strategy stems from the luck. You do your best to operate with what luck does bring you. Where your strategy, to the best of your ability, MITIGATES the harm of luck. (NB: The electronic game FTL, one of my favorites of all time, is all about this.)

But a lot of the best moments (see the threads on them!) come from when you persevere, despite the odds being far, far against you.

That said... My least favorite scenario [Escape in the Truck] is exactly that because it's the most highly random of any of the scenarios, while my favorite [Defend the Manor House] is, again, for it being mostly strategy-based.

Let's frame the future discussion thusly: What are the sources of luck in the game?
ZP:
* Zombie spawning check, to see if you spawn more.
* Zombie spawn roll, for how many you get.
* Zombie fight dice.
* Zombie event cards (and, with expansions, other such cards).

HP:
* Movement rolls. (*and expansion-related paraphernalia).
* Fight dice.
* Event cards.

How does this framing the discussion help? A lot of the strongest cards are those that mitigate randomness. Zombie cards that FORCE new spawns. Hero cards that add fight dice. Heavy Rain... But what about strategy mitigating randomness?:
* Avoiding fights until you have cards that will help you.
* Ensuring you have an alternate plan in case you don't roll to move high enough.
* Moving your zombies into defensive behind-wall positions this turn so they don't get blasted away until you have reinforcements to build your wall-of-death.
* Trading to other players your "not-useful-to-me" cards.
* Choosing to spawn a grave dead zombie where it's suboptimal this turn so you have a better chance of getting more zombies next turn.
* Choosing to have Billy take his turn first of the player's this round, since he has the best chance of rolling high enough to make it to the destination.
* Avoiding fights by having a zombie-killing-equipped player entering a space to save a zombies and a bad-at-fighting from having to fight, where the other one might be able to stay inside this turn and search instead of having to move away.
* Using all resources at your disposal to keep Father Joseph alive so he can cancel the super-strong Zombie event that might be drawn.
* Saving "Shamble" for when you only need 1 (100% chance) or 2 extra movement (83% chance) to get to the hero player.
* Throwing piles of disposable zombies at the strong hero, on the off chance that a stray roll WILL get him... all the while you know that, when they do die, which they likely will, you'll more likely get more next turn... possibly to spawn them more useful places on the board.

However, the truly exciting bits come when luck comes into play:
* The heroes are about to reach and objective. Play Dance of the Dead, miraculously rolling low, to put some more pressure on them.
* Try to cancel a very harmful hero card by taking Father Joe's last wound, killing him, but having the chance of getting out of a sticky situation and winning.
* Using Dynamite or some other explosive, taking out a bunch of zombies, but maybe hurting/killing a player in the process.
* Using Shamble when you need to roll a 6 to get there... and you do, and you successfully tear that building down to the ground.
* You draw just the right card at the right time. (To borrow from Magic, topdecking! My favorite LNOE moment ever: getting Escape Through the Windows and TJ, Thoroughbred a the same time, when I was surrounded and about to die.)
* Fending off scores of zombies in one turn, when you really had nothing going in your favor.
* Successfully "Catch!"ing a lighter to the guy who has dynamite and really needs to use it this turn.

[aprillo]

I totally agree with you. personally I did't find it to have "too much" luck. what I've really liked about this game is literally everything you said about it.

as I stated earlier, the only reason I'm even trying to mitigate it is just for that one group. with anybody else i play with, i plan on playing it the conventional way. Im just open to changing it up once and a while if it means the game can hit the table more often I think of it as an LNOE vitamin, for when I cant get a full meal :P

but all that being said, this is perfect. I just wanted to know the general feeling on here to see if you should bother posting anything i come up with.

I agree that the luck is balanced within the game and so it doesnt bother me at all. like you said it relies on both strategy and fate, and in that way, it has kind of a story telling way about it. which is awesome! basically what it boils down to is i have some friends who are really poor losers when they have "perfect" strategy. in fact, come to think of it, their kinda poor winners in this kinda game too, because they don't accept the victory. :P

Ayways thank you all for the feedback. I was really just curious if it would be worth sharing anything I came u with as I wouldn't want to waste the great Sarku's bandwidth