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My recurring problem with LNoE
09-11-2014, 08:23 PM
Post: #1
My recurring problem with LNoE
So LNoE introduced me to thematic board games so it will always hold a special place in my heart but there's a growing gap between how much I enjoy the likes of aToE or FanG when compared to my enjoyment for the original FFG, LNoE. I mean it's not even on my top ten list anymore and I'm wondering if other people are having that problem too.

My problem with LNoE is the zombie player! I feel the whole mechanic is inherently flawed, though it generally only manifests itself in larger games of 5 and 6 players. Unfortunately 5-6 players is generally the number of players I tend to game with when LNoE is pulled out.

So here's a typical sequence of a few rounds of game play for me:

Zombie turn: Zombies roll to spawn, success, draw cards, they move... one slow shambling step. Maybe play a card to move one guy farther. Zombies spawn. 2 minutes to end turn

Hero turn: Heros search. Hero's outside move to rendezvous with others inside. end. 2 minutes to end turn

Zombie turn: Max zombies state achieved until zombies die. discard and draw cards. zombies move. end. 2 minutes to end turn.

Hero turn: Heros search. A little discussion on whether the hero closest to a few zombies should move yet or keep searching. More discussion on how to use the items they have. Time: 5 minutes for turn to end

Zombie turn: Can't spawn, discard and draw cards, zombies move. end. 2 minutes to end turn.

Hero turn: Zombies almost on us! Search for some heroes, move and regroup for others. discussion... more discussion... MORE discussion. maybe shoot some zombies... end. 10 minutes to end turn.

Zombies: draw, and move maybe fight a hero now. Time 2-3 minutes

Hero Turn: blablabla 15 minutes

Zombies: 2 minutes *zombies groan*

Heroes: 15 minutes


Anyway you get the point. The zombie turns get complicated maybe once or twice a game. You get one big payoff... two if you're lucky by cornering the heroes and don't get me wrong, that's a lot of fun. BUT... literally every game I play with 4 people piloting the 4 heroes, the hero turn just gets longer and longer and longer.

I still enjoy this game but the consistent lopsided nature of turns in larger games really detracts from my enjoyment. Does anyone else have a similar problem. Are there solutions? Game variants people find work for the zombie player as much as for the hero player when you're hosting a 6 player game?

I don't know. I've gotten increasingly frustrated with LNoE and that results in it sitting on the shelf more often than not these days. I didn't even buy the Blood in the Forest expansion when it came out and that is a first for me.

The only thing that immediately comes to mind to serve as a comparison is the old axis and allies game. It was booked as a 3-5 player game but playing 3 players was obnoxious because 2 players got to play 2 factions while the third player was stuck with one faction. So basically you got to watch everyone else go through 2 entire turns for every one of yours.
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09-11-2014, 10:02 PM
Post: #2
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
You should give the Timber Peak & Blood in the Forest a go as they seem to provide a more brutal (and quicker) game.

I never play with 2 zombie players - so 5 players max.

I think there are quite a few zombie cards which can be played during the Hero turn and therefore provide the zombie player engagement / input during the Hero player turn.

I enjoy the DM aspect of playing the zombies. Was it Wellington who said "Never interupt your opponent when he is making mistakes"?
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09-11-2014, 10:40 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2014 10:41 PM by mqstout.)
Post: #3
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
I also GM in my RPGs, so I'm used to being there to help ease the enjoyment of the others at the table. I also enjoy being Zombie player when I'm murdering heroes.

BUT I can totally get where you're coming from. I have some friends who wouldn't want to play Zombie side if they were offered it, for the same reasons.

How about other asymmetric semi-coop games, like Mansions of Madness, or Betrayal at House on the Hill [after the twist]?
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09-11-2014, 11:01 PM
Post: #4
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
Maybe I'll pull it all out and give it another chance with the new expansion, but I don't know if I want to invest any more money into a game that I play less and less.

I do a little of DMing for our RPG group, but for me that's the most demanding and integral part of any rpg. I am most involved in the campaign when I am a DM. As the zombie player in bigger games I feel like I'm not even really playing.

I've only played the storyteller or w/e they called it in Mansions of Madness once or twice but the comparison is relevant. We played that a couple of times and then got rid of it for similar reasons. I don't know if I really like games where someone has to run the background.

As for Betrayal, I like it but my friend's 2 and 4 year olds ripped his copy of Betrayal at House on the Hill before I played more than one game. Insane19

I don't know... More feedback appreciated but I'm out for now
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09-11-2014, 11:39 PM
Post: #5
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
A very honest and thought provoking post there Raynor. Like Achtung Panzer said 2 players for the Zombies is a big no-no. I feel it just doesn't work (thematically and practically)

Are you using Grave Weapons? These change the game quite a bit as you have many different types of Zombies (same as the Feral Dead and Behemoths from BitF). I love being the Zombies! I guess it is a little bit like being the evil wizard in Heroquest or the overlord in Descent but even though Heroes do get more thinking, discussing and moving time I still think there's room for tactics for the Zombies. Yes there's luck in this game (rolling dice, card pick ups, for both sides) but I like that. To be a really good Zombie player (I think) you have to listen to the Heroes bicker and panic and savour it like a sweet wine... All the time cycling through your cards and laying traps for the weaker Heroes. Know their strengths and their weaknesses. Know which victory condition to go for and ultimately I believe it's the Zombie players job to make sure every gamer has an enjoyable evening, taking on the role as GM.

Some may seem playing as the Zombies as sending lambs to the slaughter but if used correctly Heroes can be trapped and finished pretty quick especially if they don't work together. I know your main point is in relation to how much game time the Zombie player actually gets. I will say it's not something I've ever really considered in fact I think this would only really bother me if my Zombies were getting hammered every single Turn and I felt like my Zombies had no chance. The majority of games the Zombies eat very well and using every expansion (lots of scenarios, Zombie Upgrades, Fires, Grave Weapon Zombies) there are so many options/tactics for the Zombies I'm always thinking of how to trap those poor humans...Zombie13

As I said before, a great post and I look forward to reading other people's thoughts.
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09-12-2014, 02:40 AM
Post: #6
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
My group has so much sunk in know that we have to play it, but must say that we actively avoid games that put 1 player in a dm position or the bad guy position, like descent, and to some degree know, we much prefer bad guys as board mechanics, and we also prefer coop play, not first only winner games
. Another beef is games that have unballanced characters, one person plays a combat monster and the next a weeny. Ok if the weeny has other useable skills that. The brute doesn't, but we have found games like all things zombie where 2 of the characters are VASTLY more powerful than the others, makes it less fun when half the team are basically playing a character half as powerful as the others
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09-12-2014, 08:14 AM (This post was last modified: 09-12-2014 08:16 AM by spiritusXmachina.)
Post: #7
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
Interesting thread. So much coming to my mind that I don't have the time to write down all my thoughts. So here the most important.

It's easy to come into some kind of routine always playing the same scenarios with the same friends in the same roles. I remember this when playing tabletop games. After some games you know exactly what your opponent will do in (nearly) each situation. That's when I try to change something. Invite someone new to play the game! Let someone else play the Zombies! Try different scenarios (some of them are quite challenging and can't be won by playing the same routines)!

I often like to play the "GameMaster"/Zombieplayer and in some way be of "service" to the other players (that of course means that sometimes the heroes have to lose - or the game would'nt be thrilling fun, would it? And I always give my best to challenge them!) But sometimes I need to switch the role or it would be too boring for me.
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09-12-2014, 04:44 PM
Post: #8
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
I can definitely understand your point. I've personally never had that complaint, as I feel like the cards alone give the Zombies a lot of pretty twisted and evil things they can do to heroes. Then when you add stuff like the Grave Weapon Zombies, you can have even more fun.

I can definitely see, though, where you might have a different experience.

For me personally, I think my only really major complaint would be those times when the game winds up being just very... meh. I suppose that can happen with any game. Plus, I would say 9 times out of 10, LNOE winds up being pretty epic and awesome in my book. But, then there are times when you find yourself constantly rolling 1's. Or Heroes constantly search yet find nothing but crappy cards. Or the Zombie Player(s) keep getting cards that aren't that helpful. Or the Zombie Player(s) has the board full of zombies almost instantly, so it seems like every single moment the heroes are about ready to search, instead they have to run to avoid being swarmed by 500 zombies at once.

Those times when the game winds up just being very anti-climactic can be such a bummer, especially when you don't necessarily get to pick the game up as much anymore.

Still, from my experience, more often than not it is a lot of fun for both sides.
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09-12-2014, 08:54 PM
Post: #9
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
The expansion with grave weapons gives you many more tactical options for your zombies. That being said I've never found that it takes too long for a hero turn to complete.
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09-12-2014, 09:25 PM
Post: #10
RE: My recurring problem with LNoE
we have egg timered it before.

then there are the 100% timed games. the DV zombie card game is like that.
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