Quick question on # of cards

[friskers96]

I'm guessing the deck the heroes win condition is something that should have been removed but never was. It's still a possibility with the few card stripping cards in the zombie deck and card hungry heroes. Very rare occurrence, not like the zeds need another win condition..

[mercurycs]

With my above suggestion you still play with all cards from every expansion. That is 143 or so cards and you still get to have a chance of the card discard loss. I think the idea is solid and will try it out during my next few games.

[Cloaker]

Here's the rub; The game is obviously very carefully constructed to be balanced, down to a card vs. card level. So the deck depletion aspect, while admittedly unpopular, seems to be an integral part of the core game as it was originally designed. By NOT having deck depletion as a viable win condition for the zeds, it removes part of the balance.

Is there any official word from Jason Hill on how he views the deck depletion facet now with 140+ cards for heroes? Was it a conscious decision, perhaps, to increase card count so as to eliminate that possibility of Zeds winning in that manner because it isn't very entertaining?

Even better question--who has ever won as zeds by decking the heroes with all cards used 140+? If the answer is zero, I would say there is something here to be assessed. The rule of decking to win is no longer (unofficially) a win condition.

[friskers96]

I have seen it once.. The game though was not played tactically well at all. I believe when we did Defend the Manor we had an epic cast of card leeches in the lineup. There was Mr. Goddard, Sheriff Anderson, Jake, and Stacey. Between the starting cards and the Manor Deck, there are a bunch of cards off the top right there. Jake always drew 2 and Goddard abused the multi draw cards and the zombies used the bulk of the stripping cards. It was down to the wire and it did happen, I think at that point I was playing with everything except web supplements and HP1. That's still a hefty deck, and I know from other scenarios that looking for scenario search items and a town full of unloaded guns it can be gone through pretty quick. Amanda's ability has been abused on more than one occasion but that can also be being mis-played.

[jeffd1830]

I've been thinking a lot about this...

I think the reason for deck depletion being a Zombie victory is simply this:

Some scenarios have "scenario search items" that are needed for the Heroes to win. If the Hero deck becomes depleted, it is no longer possible to obtain the scenario search items (particularly if all the event cards in hand have also been discarded.) If it weren't a Zombie victory condition, it could create a stalemate where Heroes can't find the items but they are strong enough that they hold off the Zombies for a long time.

By the Zombie player forcing a Hero discard when there are no cards left, it as if you're watching a zombie guzzle the last gallon of gasoline making it impossible to start the truck (or whatever is appropriate for the given scenario.)

By increasing the Hero deck size to 100+, you're prolonging the hope that the item the Heroes need is somewhere in there.

There is nothing inherently beneficial about the Zombie having access to this win condition, except to end a game that would otherwise become boring at that point. When the deck is bigger and this becomes unlikely, it can hardly be contributing to the balance of the game, as it is such an unlikely thing to happen.

The Zombies already have the ability to attack and kill the Hero holding the needed scenario search items, and end up discarding them that way, thematically accomplishing the same thing.

For a while I was very pleased with a certain house rule (I can't remember offhand who here suggested it) that said to multiply by 3 for any time you are supposed to discard X cards from the Hero card deck, that way they are depleted more quickly, but the more I think about it, that just makes it more tedious to count them off, exposes more discards which become accessible by Heroes for retrieval (via "pick up" rules, etc), and doesn't really contribute anything thematically. It is an attempt to salvage a game mechanic that doesn't need to be there any longer, because there are already enough cards to not worry about it.

[Evilzombie74]

Played the supplies scenario last night, unfortunately two of the heroes got bogged down in the house which of course attracted the zombies, with the zombies relentlessly trying to breach the barricades the Manor House was quickly overwhelmed, as the sun clocked ticked down the efforts of the players looked fruitless (although being zombie fans they appreciated the feeling that all is lost),
Under the circumstances the guys decided to fight to the death and eventually the scenario ended when the final hero got zombified.

Finally the reason I latched onto this particular thread is the discussion we had after the game, it was decided although we enjoyed the game there was a danger of it becoming a little humdrum with the amount of cards in the deck, some of the cards felt repetitive even though we barely skimmed the vast amount of cards on offer.

I have therefore decided to reduce the deck by skimming some of the repetitive event cards and maybe the odd weapon to try and keep the game balanced.

[StayPuft]

I've never really been a huge fan of the win condition of zombies causing the last hero deck card to be discarded. To me, it just seems so anticlimactic. It's almost like a DQ or count out ending to a big wrestling match. LOL!

So, frankly, I'm fine with it basically being eliminated. To be honest, even when I first got the game and only had the base decks, I've never played a game that even came close to using the whole deck. I think the only time it ever came close was when we played once with Timber Peak with just the Timber Peak base decks. So, it isn't like it really unbalances the game much if at all. It wasn't a win condition that was very prevalent.

It is definitely a matter of personal preference, but the decks were designed to be very balanced, even if you do decide to use all of the expansions and base decks all in one.

There is some concern that it can make it harder in the case of scenarios where the Heroes are looking for a specific item(s), but most of the common items that tend to be scenario search items are duplicated in many of the expansion decks so you have a few more. So, it may make it a little harder, but should still be relatively balanced.

Again, just a matter of personal preference, I suppose. I happen to enjoy the huge decks, because it adds more variety to what you may see pop out from game to game.

[Pfr_Fate]

I figured I'd make LNOE one complete game and TP as the sequel (which it is) and it's own complete game. I divided the extra expansion cards evenly and thematically between the two games and there they will stay. The boards and scenarios will never cross over or be mixed. The TP characters stay only in TP as will the initial LNOE characters. Other characters may mix with either.

[StayPuft]

Yeah, I kind of agree with that approach. I have Timber Peak and the Blood in the Forest expansion. Mainly, my plan is to keep them separate from the original set. I may decide to combine them on demand for one massive game, but in general I plan to keep the original set and all its expansions as one game, and then Timber Peak as the "sequel" as you put it.

I like this idea both thematically and functionally as well. Otherwise that is A LOT of stuff to carry around for one game. LOL!