Timing of Wounds and Valeria

[ATOEtalGeek]

(01-06-2014 01:32 AM)MoonSylver Wrote:  ...in probably 90% of cases the extra wounds would really be irrelevant, because you're either KO'ed or not...

I would say in many cases the extra wounds are relevant. When you play prevention cards or abilities they would apply first to these extra wounds. You need to cancel off the extra wounds plus one to keep from being KO'd. I can see it with Valeria's ability and Isabella's as well as others.

I have seen threads of complaints that Isabella is unbalanced. If you are ignoring the extra hits I can see why one would think that.

Even Karl's ability becomes watered down if your ignoring wounds. "May ignore the first Hit taken during each Fight Round" - hardly matters if you're ignoring all the extra ones anyway. Is he even capable of being KO'd if you're ignoring extra wounds? If he has his remaining wound box open, each round he takes a wound and would be KO'd he ignores it as the first hit in the round, the extras are ignored anyway.

It seems the Hero and Villain abilities are designed on the foundation that all Hits and Wounds have to be resolved and not ignored.

It would be great to get an official clarification on this.

[MoonSylver]

90% might be a tad high, but in most cases, unless you have cards or abilities that effect wounds (which is probably less often than more...), the number you take above your KO isn't going to matter.

In the Karl example you give, sure he could be KO'ed, even with the mistake of not tracking wounds correctly: He has one wound left, he takes two hits, he ignores one w/ his special ability, & takes the other.

I think you may be misinterpreting what they meant earlier by "ignore"? If I understand correctly, the reference was to all the "excess" hits you take, above your boxes. And I can see how one could make that mistake. Beacuse as I say, in a lot of cases, you're either KO'ed or not, & if you are, it doesn't matter how much "extra" damage you took.

It's only when cards, special abilities, & the like come into play that it would matter, really.

Now Isabella would be another great example of this. If She took say 10 wounds, she's going to have to cancel at least NINE of them to keep from getting KO'ed.

[ATOEtalGeek]

In your examples of Karl and Isabella you are requiring them to use their abilities before ignoring wounds (the way I believe it was intended). The premise of the Tommy Brownell post that started this disucssion assumed the ignoring "normally" came first, then the abilities/cards. He was asking about Valeria but seemed to extend the ignoring as normal across the board.

I have since found Jason's answer on BGG where he comfirmed the ignoring came first, but the answer was maybe specific to Valeria? Maybe Valeria is intended to be a special case as he wants her to be able to recover if she kills the Minion. I'm choosing that path and not attempting to apply the ignoring beyond Valeria. So many other mechanics break if you do.

You and I are on the same page. I just wonder how well this is understood in the ATOE following. I keep recalling the complaints that Isabella is broken and that the game is too easy, etc.

[MoonSylver]

Exactly.

Do you have a link? I was looking for posts from Jason on the subject, & all I could find was in reference to the fact that you can't willingly "over allocate" when an event occurs that forces the Heroes as a group to take Wounds, which is not the same thing as being discussed here at all. The discussion itself is illuminating though, as it reaffirms the conclusions here.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/393916/j...s-question

[ATOEtalGeek]

Here is the link. Look for Jason's answer to question #43.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/4403970#4403970

[MoonSylver]

Very peculiar. Seems to fly in the face of the rules as written, both from the core rulebook, Valeria's special ability, and from LNOE (which, granted, is a different game, but VERY similar mechanically)...

[ATOEtalGeek]

Here's another BGG post where Jason acknowledges that the Living Statue Minion must attempt to check off Wounds before they can be ignored. It's consistent with what we've been surmising.

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/4235521#4235521

So far it seems the exception is Valeria. It seems he intended/intends her to survive no matter what if she defeats an enemy. If we are to take his 12/27/09 post as errata she would get to ignore extra Wounds then heal D3 of her 1 to 3 Wounds after she defeats an enemy. I can accept that because her ability works either way and it could be her card did not get written the way Jason intended. If you follow what we've been saying and what the rules instruct - that Wounds are only ignored after all cards & abilities are attempted then the "(this may prevent her from being KO'd)" statement works because it's not a guarantee of her surviving the fight. If you follow Jason's wishes per his post you can interpret that as "(this may prevent her form being KO'd)" if she defeats the enemy. So it's still not a guarantee in that sense.

While I was writing this I just picked up on the fact that her card uses the term "enemy", instead of Minion (I had to go back through my paragraph and change all Minions to enemy). This opens her up quite a bit, for example, while fighting a werewolf Hero or even an Evil Elder in a Showdown - which provides some very cool imagery. You can see her in the midst of the battle with the Villain raging, torches and lanterns lay strewn, and the other Heroes surrounding the scene, she is off to one side feasting on an Evil Elder she just killed. You glance over and she gives you this threatening death glare and snarl and goes back to sating herself. Then she's back into the fight, fresh as ever. You make a mental note to always stay on her good side.

I feel good about all this now. My mind's back at ease. I'd like to get all this info up on BGG but not sure how to go about doing that.

[MoonSylver]

All very interesting points, which I agree with completely. The only thing that puts me a bit ill at ease is the whole Valeria situation, in that you've got the ability as written on one hand, the designers intent on the other, & a rule that is consistant for everyone else except her right in the middle.

But that's just me. I'll have to either just suck it up & play it the way it was INTENDED or house rule it & play it written.

As far as adding to BGG, there was a living FAQ started years ago & kept up for awhile, before it was abandoned. You could always add it to that I suppose. If I had more time & energy I'd go through & add all the questions asked since then, but I'm definitely not up to that challenge.