True horror

[vikinglad]

This has been a fun thread to read the last couple of days. You both have some really cool ideas. The roll to be quiet while searching is pretty exciting. It would be cool to release these on a scenario template once all the details are hammered out. It maybe needs some chits for under the minis so you can keep track of who is aware of the people and who isn't. Is there a way for an aware Zed to become unaware again (hero hides)? Also, I think the zombies should be placed even on fleeting LOS, like in HeroQuest. Then you can check your path mid move and make decisions on where to go.

[kinkomaster]

Ahhh... vikinglad, actually, the zeds never make the board... a lot like Heroesquest. Ya, I have put the fleeting LOS in there , because it only makes sense. If you are running between buildings, you are gonna notice the shambler a few houses down playing with the mirror on the trashed car. As I was saying, tho, in the beginning... only the heroes are running around the board. I'm attaching the Excel file that might be the layout of the scenario I've set up. There are 2 ways to do it: Keep track on a computer of some form, or print it out and do it manually. This special rule is definitely gonna rely on the honor system, and the zed player is the one that is going to have to determine player LOS. If the ZP screws over the heroes a couple times... they won't be using these rules again. One thing is for sure, checking LOS will be easier on a smaller scale.

[vikinglad]

Maybe I still don't get it. It is when you say:

Quote:The only time zeds will be placed on the board is when there is LOS from player to zed... Once on the board, the zed stays there, even if the player leaves LOS (heroes tend to keep track of walkers).

It sounds like pieces are placed, then left out. Are they then always aware of whats going on, once alerted, like the baddies in HeroQuest? It would be cool if you could hide for a bit and make them oblivious again. Not sure how this would work, though. Maybe roll when there is no LOS to see if you hid? Keep rolling every turn as long as you do not have LOS? Then I thought, "Gee, if they are on the board, but some are aware and some aren't, how can you keep track?" Little chits with a ! on them, I guess. I dunno.

[Emp]

After playing LNEO for many times now I think adding this excell sheet or whatever with invisible zombies and to keep track of zombies who are or are not in LOS will slow the game down even more.
On the box it states that the game lasts for 90 mins, has anyone ever played with five players and finished that game in that time?
We didn't
The heroes here tend to doublecheck their cards and moves here every time and start discussing things amongst them wich again slows things down.

Me as a zed player I go in balls out, you know... Just causing mayhem and havoc wherever I can. I'm not really looking for something extra in the game that will likely slow things down even more.

What does this FLEETING los mean? I've played Heroquest as a kid by didn't care for it that much so I must have forgotten what it means.

How about this for a rule on searching/moving?

The hero fails his roll of 4+
All zombies on the same board immediately move one square in the direction of the hero. When there are more then two heroes on the board they can be caught in a tug of war hehe
This is done when searching and when the hero is moving INSIDE buildings. Think of them running to get the hell out of there knocking over chairs and stuff.
When a hero starts his move outside a building he does not have to roll to check if he makes noise (I think the hero will move more cautiously when he is out in the open)

In the zombieturn the zombies then keep their attention focused on the last hero they were drawn too and may move with the normal LNEO movement rules.
When a hero moves of that part of the board, the zombie loses interest and just wanders around wherever the zombieplayer choses to go.

I wouldn't turn the zombies in mindless (luck of the roll) roaming things because that will make the roll of the zombieplayer obsolete.
There are scenario's where the zombies are on a mission, so these would not be able to be played anymore.

[kinkomaster]

Emp, these rules aren't meant for zombie missions. If you want to use them for a zombie mission just to make the zombie not visible until LOS happens, that's fine, but that isn't really why I thought this up. You have to remember, you said it yourself, zombies aren't hunters, they roam around looking for opportunity. I don't really see the ZP as obsolete as much as... biding their time... until the opportunity presents itself.

Ya, games do take a while to play, especially with large number of players, but it is the players that drag things along. This function is primarily a ZP chore. He has to pay attention for when LOS is made, and he will make the rolls on his sheet. They can also play their cards as normal. The impact of this would all hinge on the players becoming overly cautious, nothing to do with the mechanics of the rule. Since you go "balls out", it'll take you a couple minutes to change the position of the zeds on the sheet, and then check LOS... that's it.

Ok... the "fleeting" LOS. I'll do the Heroquest example to make it easy, since it is a dungeon environment. You are going down a hallway and halfway down on the right side is another hallway to the right. You don't want to turn right but go straight, so you roll and move down the hallway, and thru the intersection. On your way thru, up the right hand hallway, there happened to be an Orc, and he is now placed on the board... eventho you leave LOS with him. You guys get it now? Now put that into LNoE terms when a Hero runs between 2 pieces of cover.

Vikinglad, while your idea sounds REAL kewl, here are the problems with it. Much like sound, the zombie is gonna walk over to the last place that he saw some food moving (you see it all the time in shows and movies), plus at this point, you are getting into Emp's fear and jacking up the amount of time it takes to play a game.

Now. Vike, I'm not gonna bail on ya... love the idea... and I am an idea man at heart. LNoE is such a complete game that it could be incorporated into an RPG. That's right... you heard me. If you guys are into playing survival/ horror RPGs or something along those lines, you could do all the RP'ing first and when the players are gonna move... break out LNoE to do the action. That way, game length doesn't matter, since you are doing a gaming session.

Oh, Emp, one last thing. The missing the search check and having all the zombies on the same board take one step towards the searcher. You can't do the same board, that doesn't make sense. You could have someone search in the hangar and miss, and a zed way on the opposite end of the board would move, but one 2 or 3 spaces away on another board wouldn't. That doesn't make sense. You need to have a radius that gets to move. If you want to do a set one of all zeds within 4 spaces move, there could be no argument with that. If you want to use the roll that the searcher rolled for his fail (4 thru 6 spaces... knocked over books to breaking dishes), that would really put the epic fail on the searcher. The last could be someone rolls a D6, and that number of space radius of zeds moves, and the 1 thru 6 could determine the level of noise made. Personally, I like the second one. Nothing like watching a player fail and watch the consequences at the same time... the head hang is wonderful!!

As for the zeds chasing meat, once the zeds know the heroes are there... LOS is made... the ZP can take control of them normally. These rules are only meant to be enforced as long as the zeds, heroes, or both don't know about the other. Once the ZP gets his zeds with LOS or zombie hunger... he has total control.

[Emp]

Nope, sorry I can't find myself in these rules.
To complicated wich takes out the basics of the game. It's supossed to be an action game and not an RPG game.
I'm not big on RPG games because it just wastes to much of the little free time I get to spend on playing boardgames

Even so making it a "non zombie mission ruleset" will be even more confusing, or don't you plan on playing the ones that come with the game?
For example the scenario where the heroes have to blow up the spawnpits. How could a zombieplayer prevent this when he is not allowed to move his zombies where he or she wants?
My tactic as a zombieplayer with those rules would be simple...just stand still and don't bother with walking to a random place and then they will all stand on the 4 different spawnpits.

Sound & vision wise zombies atract eachother as wel. When one moves others will surely follow.

To be honest I'm not sure this way you will get the "OH SHIT" result you are looking for.
LOS will have you spot the zombies once and then they stay on the board, unless they get killed wich makes them dissapear again.
But due to the lack of movement for the zeds there is hardly any chance they will have the jump on some unsuspecting hero wich could result in instant death.
A hero spots one...by the time the zed gets across the room the hero can be long gone again.

But it's your house, your rules so try them out and see how it works.

[kinkomaster]

Ok, Emp, let me give you a little history about myself. I've been playing boardgames since '81, and I have played with the "fog of war" in a lot of them... including Battletech (where death can come swiftly in a double blind game). I can understand your resistance to a new aspect to an awesome game, especially when it appears that you have set strats for the zombies for certain missions. As I said earlier, the random zombie movement is only for non-zombie mission scenarios. When they have a mission to accomplish, other than eating the heroes, the ZP has control and you are just using "fog of war".

As for your example of destroying the spawn pits... most of this thread you knocked me for taking the control out of the ZP's hands, and here you have a strategy where there is no need for a ZP at all... well, maybe to play cards. Heroes run all over the place collecting up stuff. Zombie turn. Draw cards. No need to roll for spawn... max zombies are out and on the spawn pits. Move turn. No need, or if a building was taken over, move those zombies towards the closest spawn pit. End zombie turn.

Are you telling me that a hero running into a house that has a zombie either right next to the door or a space away from it isn't going to give an "Oh shit!" moment... especially if the hero burned their movement getting there? In the original boardgames with the traditional set up, these rules aren't going to work very well due to the open layout, but on any layout that a hero can't see every board from any one position... ya, this set of rules will work. Plus, these rules aren't made to kill the heroes. I made them to put a little "horror" into a horror game. Right now it is a just a strategy game where the heroes have superior movement, but the zeds have superior numbers. I want the heroes to round a corner of a house and moan when I put 3 zombies on the board. I want them to jump when they enter a house that is Taken Over and I plop a zombie in each square... including theirs.

If you aren't used to using "fog of war" rules, then don't use these rules. I'm not forcing anyone to use them, but they will be a major part of my scenario, so you might want to think against getting it. If you don't use these rules, especially when the heroes enter the sewers, it takes away from any form of horror that would make the scenario worthwhile. Otherwise, all it becomes is an escape mission where you avoid the zeds that you see. Real tough. You simply use a Space Hulk or Starship Troopers strat as the heroes at that point.

[Emp]

Don't get your nickers in a twist mate, relax. And for your info, I've been playing boardgames since 84 (Bloodbowl, dungeonbowl, space marines, space hulk, talisman, Judge Dredd, ...)

Make your scenario, build what you want. And see how it goes.

In my opinion when you change everything about the core game...why then use the game entirely? For the figures?
Not using zombie missions? If you really go down to the very basic, there is in every scenario a zombie mission.
And basicly it always comes down to "HERO do this & Zombie PREVENT this" correct?

A zombie building can also not be taken over without the hero knowing it because you need to play the card to do that. Don't tell me the zombieplayer will have to play his cards secretly as well?

I'm not at all dissing you for taken the control out of the ZP hands, I did however say that without movement of choice for the zombies there is hardly any need for the ZP to play. About the spawning pits...that is a strategy. A tactic to use to prevent the Hero from getting very close to the pits. I don't have any strategies for the missions, I always play and react to what goes on. I just stated that I would do that if I would not have to liberty to move my zombies where I want them to move to. Big difference to what you might think or say I do.

And how about this, since we compare to movies and such.
Wouldn't you agree that a hero might notice that for example the diner is full of zombies (these things don't tend to hide right)? If he decided to go in...well then he is just plain dumb or very heroic

But like I said. Work your scenario out, see what you can do or what you come up with plays out.
And if you can't take the, let's call it "critisisme" or people giving you their opinion on certain things....maybe you might think twice before posting?
No offens but I do get the feeling that you get quite defensive when trying to defend your ideas.

[kinkomaster]

I don't really get defensive defending my ideas, but I do get frustrated having to make my points over and over again. Such as the hero looking into the diner and seeing the zombies. Well, if you would look back, when they look in and make LOS with the zombies, they make LOS right back. It isn't like they are going to see inside from across the field... the diner is dark, the windows are dirty/ broken, and the zombies could be farther back in the shadows. Plus, the "core rules" state that LOS can't be made unless you are along a wall in order to look in, right?

Did you have this problem when the barricades or the sewers (basically teleporter) where introduced in SotF? How about the fire rules for when fire spreads and zombies walk thru and become flaming zombies. How are you with that? I don't get you... you gave a real good addition to these rules with the search check. Now we are back to square 1... again. I simply don't know how you see me changing the core rules. To put it very simply, I am adding "fog of war" on top of the game. Sure, I am making the zombies act like zombies until they see food to react to, but if you want to leave that little piece out and make it so you can run all of the zombies over to the heroes objectives... go for it. It is the nice thing about add-on rules, you can add on or leave off whatever you like.

Oh, as for playing Taken Over cards... you play them as usual, but the players just don't know the building. You mark it on your sheet. I know, I know... I'm messing with the core rules. As for Zombie missions... again... if they have an objective, other than eating the heroes, which is in the vast majority of the scenarios, the ZP has control. If all they are doing is reacting and trying to eat the heroes, I don't really consider that a mission... sorry... just my opinion.

Since you've seen it fit to give me advice about posting, let me do the same for you. If you don't have anything to really contribute after saying that you do not plan to use the proposed rules, you shouldn't be so sensitive when the author defends his work from the repeated attacks on his idea.

[Emp]

Last thing to add....cause now you are starting to get on my nerves.
So I'm not even going to answer your questions on barricades, ... because I find it irrelevant.

(05-13-2011 01:53 PM)kinkomaster Wrote:  I want them to jump when they enter a house that is Taken Over and I plop a zombie in each square... including theirs.

Just allow me to defend myself cause I DISPISE people who take peoples words and turn them around trying to make a point....or don't even bother to read correctly because they get tense for some reason...
Where did I say that I don't want to use/play your rules???...I just stated that I can not find myself in the mindless/random zombiewalking

At first you started by talking about smell and all that stuff...walking dead...and so on. "Realisme", horror, ... wich started of kinda weird but went in a good direction (with some help).

So now I just made a comment about a hero running BLINDLY in to a building wich has been (your words clearly) TAKEN OVER.
So my thought was...how is this possible...or is that hero just plain stupid to blindly run into a building in wich he gets jumped by a zed in every space? I mean, a building full of zeds is bound to make LOADS of noise and STINK of high heaven (according to what we talked about earlier)
Later on you talked about fleeting LOS.
If a hero gets fleeting LOS (your rules) then it is according to my calculations impossible to get surprised because the moment a hero walks towards a door or next to a window (broken or dirty) the zombies should be spotted. Or do heroes lose all their senses as long as they are moving?
Was that not also the case in Heroquest? I remember a dungeoncrawler where you as a hero had to stop suddenly and then monsters came on the board and then you could continue your move.

It's clear now to me that you are a HERO player. You maybe think of the zombies as lesser opponent? (and if you take their basic ability away from them...your make them lesser opponents...MY OPINION)
How would you describe the "Defend The Manor" scenario then?
Not worth playing because the zombies "just try to get in, eating heroes that come in their way"?