When you fight, who rolls first?

[xraine69]

I will quote someone from another of my game forums(heroScapers), "It's a game, not a simulation".

[vikinglad]

Serdel, your English is top-notch. I had no idea it wasn't your first language. I just didn't want to sound more harsh than I intended.

Awesome FAQ, thanks for directing me to it. I read a lot of these here too, but this format is neat. I found what you meant on pg 21, and it is in regards to the "Get back you devils" card, which you already said you understood. On pg 20 right before it, it says

Quote:1) Fight Begins (between 1 Hero and 1 Zombie)
2) Both Hero and Zombie roll Fight Dice
3) Both players have the chance to use
cards/abilities/etc.
4) Both players agree they are finished playing Fight
cards
5) Fight is Resolved - comparing highest individual
Fight Dice for each
After the Fight is Resolved (who wins/loses), then
cards can be played to prevent any wounds they are
about to take. Once wounds are dealt (and the results
are in), players can use cards like 'I Feel Kinda'
Strange' or 'Get Back You Devils' etc.

As far as who gets to play cards first during the Fight,
it really doesn't matter much because only the player
who is currently losing is likely to want to play a card.Players can continue to play cards/use abilities until
both players decide to stop, only then is the Fight
Resolved.

I think the answer to your question may be "play it how you like." Your style would be a "house rule" of sorts, and if you and your buddies enjoy playing it that way, do it how you feel works best. Even better, post it here once you get it sorted out, and maybe we can all try it.

As for fights and using weapons, sometimes a fight against a zombie may be incredibly easy (barely takes a tap to smash its rotting head with your boot). Sometimes it may be very hard. In a real fight, you wouldn't know how hard a zombie was going to fight back until you were in mid-combat. I probably wouldn't bring my extreme A-game to every individual zombie I faced, especially knowing my weapons could be lost, unless necessary. In this way, I think the fights in LNOE are more like real fights in that both parties are reacting to what the other is doing. It becomes more than a luck-of-the-dice thing. It also adds to the survival-horror aspect of the game by giving it an item management angle.

[D153453D]

Striaght from Jason himself

Hey Guys,

Sorry I haven't been around much of late, I've just been unbelievably busy! Anyway, just thought I would poke in for a second before heading off to Origins in Ohio tomorrow (the show is this week/weekend). Anybody who's going to be there should definately stop by and say Hi - we're in booth #305. We're going to be demoing LNOE and Growing Hunger, as well as some limited demos of A Touch of Evil.(End shameless plug ;> ).

As for your question at hand... The potential timing issue of players wanting to play cards first. Believe it or not, this has never come up in a real game situation; and I've played the game hundreds of times with more people than I can count (and I can count pretty high ;> ). The thing that makes defining the timing tricky is that once you make a system for timing then people will immediately start trying to abuse it.

For instance, if you said, "well, this is a Zombie movie and the Heroes should always FEEL like they are losing...so...Zombies should have priority on simultaneous card play." Suddenly you have Zombie Players intentionally waiting to try and slap down a card at the same time as a Hero...not good.

I would suggest that you just say that if this situation ever arises during a real game (not a hypothetical), the two players should roll off to see who's card gets priority. The player who does not have priority may then choose whether they still want to play their card or not.

I think that this is a fair setup for a seemingly rare occurance. If this kind of thing does become more prevalent, then I will look into setting up a balanced system to really define the timing of card play (though I'd rather not go down that road if possible - tis a slippery slope).

- Jason

Jason C. Hill
Flying Frog Productions

In another post, which i can't find at the moment, he says to ask the losing player if he/she is going to play anything and if they don't than play you're card.

[serdel]

(01-19-2011 12:49 AM)xraine69 Wrote:  I will quote someone from another of my game forums(heroScapers), "It's a game, not a simulation".

Can't argue with that :> But 1 thing I have noticed about LNOE (in the rule book or on the forums) is that people usually try to explain most of the rules with a 'real' situation. And it makes perfect sense. For example 'why zombies can go through walls and humans don't'. I recently had presented the game to totally different players than my usual game team. And they were wondering about this rule. Than I explained them what is the supposed background for that in real situation - they are bursting through wall boards, windows etc. Than they said - 'ok if zombie can do it, hero can do it also - what's the problem. and even if they can't - when a zombie makes a whole in the wall, a hero can use it afterwards'. But then I continued the explanation about 'real world' not sth. like 'this just makes the game better and rules easier' and they eventually agreed that this makes sense :> And it is more fun when you can connect each action you make in the game, with the real world. Especially when you can remember something very similar or identical from a zombie movie With my friends we sometimes get this 'hey this is just like from zombieland' and it makes the game even more enjoyable :> For me that's exactly the best thing about LNOE:>

(01-19-2011 01:24 AM)vikinglad Wrote:  Serdel, your English is top-notch. I had no idea it wasn't your first language. I just didn't want to sound more harsh than I intended.

Thanks I'm trying my best :> Who knows, maybe (just maybe) those years of school were not wasted :P

(01-19-2011 01:24 AM)vikinglad Wrote:  I think the answer to your question may be "play it how you like." Your style would be a "house rule" of sorts, and if you and your buddies enjoy playing it that way, do it how you feel works best. Even better, post it here once you get it sorted out, and maybe we can all try it.

I don't think that I asked a question or did I? :> This whole thing might be our house rule. And it doesn't come up that much during the game. Like everybody here is writing - when one side losses it's their 'turn' to play some cards (well usually, but not always - example: hero loses but has 'just a scratch'). However, this issue comes up more often when the fight ends with fend off result so no-win, no-lose for hero or zombie. In some cases (like 'get back you devils' or 'just a scratch') you must ask to be clear that the fight was resolved. But should it be only in that case? After bringing our little 'order of who plays first'. The game got a little bit of poker bluff I was mentioning and it just brings more fun ;>

(01-19-2011 01:24 AM)vikinglad Wrote:  As for fights and using weapons, sometimes a fight against a zombie may be incredibly easy (barely takes a tap to smash its rotting head with your boot). Sometimes it may be very hard. In a real fight, you wouldn't know how hard a zombie was going to fight back until you were in mid-combat. I probably wouldn't bring my extreme A-game to every individual zombie I faced, especially knowing my weapons could be lost, unless necessary. In this way, I think the fights in LNOE are more like real fights in that both parties are reacting to what the other is doing. It becomes more than a luck-of-the-dice thing. It also adds to the survival-horror aspect of the game by giving it an item management angle.

I thing the issue of 'some times the fight is hard some times easy' is covered by the dice rolling. But as far as I am concerned, If I had seen a living dead coming at me, I probably wouldn't care about breaking something - if I had a chainsaw I would use a chainsaw, if it is a bat I use a bat... And remember that in LNOE there are also female characters. Do you really think that a 'high school sweetheart' would attack a zombie with bare hands not with a bat just because she is afraid of breaking it? But you know - nobody ever fought zombies for real so this is just a 'what if' talk :> I guess we can only be referring to zombie movies for justifying our ideas. But in that case - can you remember a scene from a zombie movie when a human did not used a weapon(if he had any) in a fight ? :P

(01-19-2011 01:51 AM)D153453D Wrote:  For instance, if you said, "well, this is a Zombie movie and the Heroes should always FEEL like they are losing...so...Zombies should have priority on simultaneous card play." Suddenly you have Zombie Players intentionally waiting to try and slap down a card at the same time as a Hero...not good.

Slapping the card at the same time is exactly the thing that we want to avoid. Off topic: I agree that in a zombie game the players should always be afraid of zeds. And in our games some times the hero got overpowered and the game turned into a Zombie Hunt and this ruined the atmosphere a little. On the other hand this reminds a scene from Braindead when the fat guy was making a rotten flesh bloodbath with meat cleavers - remember that? :>

(01-19-2011 01:51 AM)D153453D Wrote:  I would suggest that you just say that if this situation ever arises during a real game (not a hypothetical), the two players should roll off to see who's card gets priority. The player who does not have priority may then choose whether they still want to play their card or not.

This is another thing that we definitely want to avoid. Nobody should be forced to reveal their cards and then pull them back.

(01-19-2011 01:51 AM)D153453D Wrote:  In another post, which i can't find at the moment, he says to ask the losing player if he/she is going to play anything and if they don't than play you're card.

Again - win/lose is clear. But fend off is a tie and not so clear.

[D153453D]

You're making it into a bigger problem then it is. Jason even said so, and I can't imagine how many times they play tested it.

[serdel]

bigger or smaller since this issue appeared on our game we just cover things for the future and so far it works good.

[vikinglad]

(01-17-2011 06:03 PM)serdel Wrote:  And now goes the question - who to answer the question 'do you accept the result of the fight'? We decided that if it is the zombie turn, ZP decides. When it's heroes turn they decide. Couldn't find any official rule for that problem.

This is the question I meant. It just took me forever to get around to answering it. I am not sure my answer was worth the wait.

Quote:can you remember a scene from a zombie movie when a human did not used a weapon(if he had any) in a fight ? :P

I guess I imagine when the hero just gave his all to kill a small horde of zombies, and only one last rotting carcass is barely crawling at him, and he nonchalantly boot-stomps it, even though he is holding a chainsaw (or whatever, this isn't a specific scene, only how I imagine low zombie rolls while playing for thematic fun). Or maybe this zombie doesn't even have arms!

[munkymuddface]

Quote:can you remember a scene from a zombie movie when a human did not used a weapon(if he had any) in a fight ? :P

Dead Alive. The scene where the priest jumps out of nowhere and proclaims "I KICK ASS FOR THE LORD!" then engages the zombies hand-to-hand. Though, you could easily argue he had Faith...

[serdel]

(01-19-2011 06:27 PM)vikinglad Wrote:  This is the question I meant. It just took me forever to get around to answering it. I am not sure my answer was worth the wait.

Hehe yes that might sound like a question but it was more like a rhetorical one :> I was just describing and justifying our way of playing:>

(01-19-2011 06:27 PM)vikinglad Wrote:  I guess I imagine when the hero just gave his all to kill a small horde of zombies, and only one last rotting carcass is barely crawling at him, and he nonchalantly boot-stomps it, even though he is holding a chainsaw (or whatever, this isn't a specific scene, only how I imagine low zombie rolls while playing for thematic fun). Or maybe this zombie doesn't even have arms!

In Lnoe even if the player has 3 zombies in his tile he can wait for using the weapon in each fight. And that's even more illogical. Personally I think there should be some kind of a bonus for fighting multiple zombies - now there is none.

(01-19-2011 07:00 PM)munkymuddface Wrote:  Dead Alive. The scene where the priest jumps out of nowhere and proclaims "I KICK ASS FOR THE LORD!" then engages the zombies hand-to-hand. Though, you could easily argue he had Faith...

I always though the English title of this movie was Braindead :> And it is number one on our B class movie list with only 1 title in competition :> But remember that the priest had no weapon so he used bare hands (and kicks :P). But if he had a shovel for example I can bet he would use it from the beginning, without being afraid of breaking it:> After all - remember how he ended? :P

[munkymuddface]

(01-19-2011 07:13 PM)serdel Wrote:  I always though the English title of this movie was Braindead :>

Braindead is the original name of the movie when it was release in New Zealand. In the States, though, it was released as Dead Alive. I know better now, but growing up it was always Dead Alive to me.