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ATOEtalGeek · 09-03-2013, 03:07 AM

We played Timber Peak tonight for the first time. The scenario we played was Blow Up the Town although that's not important to this question.

We had a mid-game debate on how the Zombie Upgrade cards Mistrust and Limitless Dead are to be used. Are they played immediately when the zombie player buys them? And then they last for the game?

or - does the Zombie player hold them and play them when he wants and they last for one round?

We decided on the latter because there is wording on each card that seems to indicate the cards are not lasting. Limitless Dead says "At the end of any Zombie Turn,..." - which seems to imply any one zombie turn, otherwise it might say the zombie turn, or even better each zombie turn.

Mistrust says "...for the rest of the turn.", which seems to imply it is played on one turn, otherwise it might have said that turn or something to indicate each turn.

Would love to hear how you guys have been playing these.

Sarge · 09-03-2013, 07:03 AM

I think the Zeds player can hold these cards and drop them when they want. Although I'm no expert so I too am now doubting myself.....again...lol

Achtung Panzer · 09-03-2013, 09:45 AM

(09-03-2013 07:03 AM)Sarge Wrote: I think the Zeds player can hold these cards and drop them when they want.

I would agree. It gives the ZP some decisions, choice and room for tactics.

**samuraitrev** · (This post was last modified: 09-03-2013 08:52 PM by samuraitrev.)

(09-03-2013 03:07 AM)ATOEtalGeek Wrote: We had a mid-game debate on how the Zombie Upgrade cards Mistrust and Limitless Dead are to be used. Are they played immediately when the zombie player buys them? And then they last for the game?

or - does the Zombie player hold them and play them when he wants and they last for one round?

Mistrust can be played at anytime.
'The Zombie Player(s) may use the effect of these Upgrades at any time (unless specified otherwise on the card)' (Timber Peak Rulebook pp. 20-21).

Limitless Dead Instructs the Zombie Player to use this card...
'At the end of the Zombie Turn.'

Both cards last the full game. See the ruling below
'Just like Hero Upgrades, Zombie Upgrades are NOT considered Zombie Cards and may not be affected or cancelled as such.' (Timber Peak Rulebook p.21

The only reason these cards would be discarded was if they had the text
One Use Only: '... must be discarded to use their effect.' (Timber Peak Rulebook p.6)

I hope this helps and I think it would have been clearer if FFP had labeled these cards Remains in Play; however I can see why FFP didn't as there's a few Hero Cards that say, May cancel any Zombie Card that says Remains in Play. This would confuse players even more so I can see why FFP didn't put Remains in Play on any of the Upgrades.

I hope that makes sense Watchmen02

Have a great birthday!

ATOEtalGeek · (This post was last modified: 09-03-2013 10:01 PM by ATOEtalGeek.)

I am having difficulty wrapping my zombie bitten brain around the logic of these cards.

On the one hand they could be interpreted as lasting for one round only, in which case why don't they say "One Use" like all the other zombie upgrades. On the other hand they don't say "one use" and therefore it can be implied that they last for the duration, however they don't say "Remains in Play" like all other remains in play cards.

They are very powerful cards to last for the duration, and the heroes have no defense against them. There is no way to remove the cards. They seem too powerful for that to be the intent and I find it hard to believe they are not unbalancing.

Also, if the upgrade cards can be held and played at the zombie player's discretion, that just adds to the power of the cards, but not only that it adds power to other upgrades as well, such as Secretly Bitten. If I were a zombie player I would just collect up two of those and spring them back to back on a single character for an instant zombie hero, and possibly the win (Blow Up the Town gives the win to the Z's if they kill TWO heroes). I would hold Concussion until a hero drew a Treatment upgrade, etc. When we played the other night the Z player collected up 6 upgrades - out of the 10 card deck. It seems to me that they need to be played when purchased to at least dampen some of the potential impact. The timing alone should have some dampening effect.

I might consider that Limitless Dead and Mistrust may be held and played at the Z player's discretion, but that they only last for the one round, as could be interpreted on the cards. I think the following position would be credible - that the cards do not say "One Use" because they are capable of having an effect multiple times in the round, unlike the other cards.

Now that I'm looking more closely at the other cards I see a conflict with Tainted. It says to "Use when a Hero is wounded...". That implies the card IS held by the Z player.

So if the cards can be held and used at discretion they all become crazy powerful. If Limitless Dead and Mistrust "remain in play" they are even more crazy powerful. This has to be unbalancing.

I'm very disappointed with the way the rules were written around these cards. They are very powerful cards to leave hanging in the gray area. We've only played TP once but we have 6 or 7 plays in altogether with the Base game and GH. It's enough to understand the potential impact of these cards if they're given more power than their face value. Am I way out of line on this?

Achtung Panzer · (This post was last modified: 09-04-2013 08:57 AM by Achtung Panzer.)

(09-03-2013 09:45 PM)ATOEtalGeek Wrote: I might consider that Limitless Dead and Mistrust may be held and played at the Z player's discretion, but that they only last for the one round, as could be interpreted on the cards. I think the following position would be credible - that the cards do not say "One Use" because they are capable of having an effect multiple times in the round, unlike the other cards.

I can live with that

(09-03-2013 09:45 PM)ATOEtalGeek Wrote: Now that I'm looking more closely at the other cards I see a conflict with Tainted. It says to "Use when a Hero is wounded...". That implies the card IS held by the Z player.

Yes, that's my understanding of the 'trigger' mechanism of when to play the card.

ATOEtalGeek · 09-05-2013, 03:11 AM

Well, we're going to have some more play tests before long and we'll be able to develop a more educated opinion. I was hoping to hear from players that have many TP games under their belts and find out how the zombie upgrade mechanic works over the long term. Hopefully we can hear from some of them.