jade vs barbed wire ?

[Zinthos]

'Killed' is just take all remaining wounds. I believe the standard is that heroes can still use "just a scratch" or other wound avoidance. I believe the same is and should be true for zombies.

Instantly isn't 'instant'. Its is a fast effect (I always think of MtG when thinking of speed). In this case the wounds go on the stack and then resolve. Since the wounds went on the stack immediately, its too late to cancel the fight or cause a re-roll, that won't effect the pending damage. But, something that targets the damage itself is just fine.

I certainly don't think the card needs to be use prophylactically.

The cleaver creates a kill effect. It works or it doesn't.

(11-28-2011 04:36 PM)PJON Wrote:  So, normal game play is; If you use a meat clever or garden shears and roll a 6. The Zombie is instantly dead. As in instantly, right ? No cards or abilities allowed, right ? So, since a zombie is not allowed to use any cards or abilities, when do you get to play

Feels No Pain
Fight:

Play this card to let a Zombie Re-roll any number of its Fight Dice.

or

Play to prevent a Zombie from being 'instantly' Killed.

do yah play it before the fight ? Just saying.

---

(12-01-2011 04:46 PM)Zinthos Wrote:  The cleaver creates a kill effect. It works or it doesn't.

On a similar note, does the fight still go on if the zombie lives through being 'Killed'?
Does a cleaver+6 create a 'kill' effect AND a 'cancel fight' effect?

I mean looking at the cards the fight should continue as normal, with the special 'kill' effect just having failed, but the FAQ says the fight doesn't resolve, but I think the FAQ has made the error of assuming that the 'kill' actually works. Obviously a dead zombie means no more fight, but the FAQ does say the fight is cancelled, and 'cancelled' is a keyword. I think maybe it needs updating.

"Grave Dead - Very Rotten" routinely live thru being Killed.

[PJON]

Hi. Until someone can explain it to me as if I were a 5 year old. This is how i see it. I also think the rules and FAQ support my reason.

When either the meat clever, garden shears or sledge hammer is used, the Zombie is instanlty dead. The fight does not resolve as normal.

When a 1 is rolled against a zombie with barbed wire, the hero instantly loses. Again the fight does not resolvee as normal.

In both cases; when using items with an instant effect. The instant effect causes the fight to resolve in a specific way.

The "Instant" effect does not allow for the fight to resolve normally. The use of cards or abilities, as you would a normal fight, is not allowed. Period!

When using a meat clever, garden shears or sledge hammer and a 6 is rolled, the zombie is instantly killed. Even if the zombie would normally win the fight, due to the instant effect. It is resloved differently.

When barbed wire is used, and the hero rolls a 1, the hero has instantly lost the fight. Even if the hero would normally win the fight, due to the instant effect. It has resolved differently.

No seriously, if your gonna tell me that the Instant effect works differently for one side than the other. Then explain to me how it balances. How does that makes sence ? How can 1 game mechanic work differently ?

Hugz

[munkymuddface]

Hi PJON,

These are my thoughts on the subject:

I agree that both Instant effects trigger. The 6 for the Shears kills the zombie. The 1 on the Barbed wire causes the hero to lose the fight, resulting in a wound. The fight ends, and no other cards or abilities can be played to change this outcome.

JADE
I still believe her ability triggers and prevents the wound because while her ability is based on the fight dice that are rolled, it does not change the outcome of the fight. Typically, a wound is assessed during the resolution of a fight, where dice results are compared and the hero loses. When a wound would be assessed to Jade, her ability triggers and checks her dice for doubles. If there are doubles, the wound is prevented, if not she takes the wound. It may not seem fair in this specific case of Jade vs Barbed wire, but in the grand scheme of things, I see no problem with 1 hero out of 16 that has a natural ability that will sometimes negate the benefits of 1 of the 8 grave weapons.

Also, there is a subtle difference between "instantly killed" and "instantly loses the fight" that should be taken into concideration.
Instantly killed - the zombie is effectively removed from the fight, so there are no fight dice to compare, interrupting a normal fight resolution.
Instantly loses the fight - the fight is fast tracked to fight resolution with a predetermined outcome. Regular resolution still applies.

All of the abilities specific to this thread -Hero weapons that instantly kill, Barbed Wire, Jade's ability - are based off of natural die rolls and trigger off of specific results, and can be broken down into if/then/else statements.
Shears - If the Hero rolls a 6, then the zombie is instantly killed, else resolve the fight as normal.
Barbed Wire - If the zombie rolls a 1, then the hero loses the fight, else resolve the fight as normal.
Jade (what is that ability called, Rebellious?) - If doubles are rolled and she loses a fight, then prevent the wound, else take the wound.

I hope this wasn't too disjointed, as I wrote this off and on today while working....

[PJON]

Hi munkymuddface. I agree with much of what you said. Here is what im confused over.

Also, there is a subtle difference between "instantly killed" and "instantly loses the fight" that should be taken into concideration.
Instantly killed - the zombie is effectively removed from the fight, so there are no fight dice to compare, interrupting a normal fight resolution.

Yes, i agree.

Instantly loses the fight - the fight is fast tracked to fight resolution with a predetermined outcome. Regular resolution still applies.

Here is where i get confused. Why isnt the fight Instantly resolved ? Barbed wire determines how the fight resloved, Instanly lose.

Since a 1 was rolled the fight instantly resolves.

So in your theory, If Johnny rolled double 1's and the zombie rolled a 1. Johnny would win the fight, because he wins on ties.

You may say in comparing apples to oranges. Wounds to wins, but im not. Im saying the same effect must be the same. The use of an ability or card is the same.

Basic rules: fights are detemined after the use of cards and abilities. Barbed wire and a rolled 1 determined the resolution.
Meat clever and a 6 determine the resolution.
When both effect take place, both effects take place. The fight is resolved with out the use of any cards or abilities.

Last Night on Earth, The Zombie Game Game by Jason C. Hill

Barbed Wire
The Zombie is tangled in barbed wire. If a Hero rolls a 1 on any of their Fight Dice while in a Fight with the Zombie, that Hero instantly loses the fight.

"It didn't even slow him down!!!"

Notes from Board Game Geek
Q. Barbed Wire says you Instantly Lose the fight, but Meat Cleaver says it is Instantly killed... Hmm... So which is it? Lose? Killed? or... Both?

A. The intent is that all 'Instant' effects would resolve simultaniously. So in this case, the Hero would Kill the Zombie and the Hero would lose the Fight (and take a wound).

The reason that the fight does not normally Resolve with a Meat Cleaver 6 is that the Zombie is Instantly Killed before moving on, so there is no Zombie left to Resolve the Fight with.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/4972...leaver-doh

[munkymuddface]

(12-05-2011 10:09 PM)PJON Wrote:  Instantly loses the fight - the fight is fast tracked to fight resolution with a predetermined outcome. Regular resolution still applies.

Sorry, that was really poor wording on my part. I meant: The fight is fast tracked to fight resolution with a predetermined outcome of a loss for the hero. Consequences of a loss apply normally, in this case a wound.

(12-05-2011 10:09 PM)PJON Wrote:  Here is where i get confused. Why isnt the fight Instantly resolved ? Barbed wire determines how the fight resloved, Instanly lose.

Since a 1 was rolled the fight instantly resolves.

So in your theory, If Johnny rolled double 1's and the zombie rolled a 1. Johnny would win the fight, because he wins on ties.

In this case I would rule that Johnny has lost the fight and would take the wound. Again, I apologize, my poor wording made sense to me, but in rereading it, I can see how it was foncusing. I hope these extra notes help...

[vikinglad]

(12-05-2011 10:09 PM)PJON Wrote:  So in your theory, If Johnny rolled double 1's and the zombie rolled a 1. Johnny would win the fight, because he wins on ties.

I think munkymuddface is trying to explain it the same way I did. Whenever the 1 is rolled for barbed wire, it causes an instant fight loss. So no, Johhny would not win, he would lose. He would have to take his wound because nothing happened during the fight that would allow him to avoid the wound. Jade would also lose the fight (in case anyone is keeping score), but would not be wounded, as she "may not be wounded in a fight if she rolls doubles," and these were already rolled during the fight. As when resolving all fights that she loses, she will ignore the wound. I think the confusion is that the difference between losing a fight and taking a wound are not being properly recognized. If she rolled doubles during the fight, even if she loses, she should avoid the wound. Whether the loss was instant or natural should not matter. Avoiding this wound is not part of the fight, and is not done until the fight is over and the results are being applied. If the barbed wire card said "instantly wounded," then it would be unavoidable.

Jade's ability is a sort of instant effect that is triggered as soon as the dice are rolled. Once she rolls doubles, she is can't be wounded. It doesn't say she can't lose the fight, just that she can't be wounded.

..spoken with authority by someone with absolutely no authority. I have no idea if this is right, I just really enjoy these little rules discussions. This is how it seems to be intended to me. Great thread, PJON!

[PJON]

Hi Viking Lad. I dont know if its a great thread. Just useful information.

I still dont see it.

Viking Lad wrote
Whether the loss was instant or natural should not matter.

It does, normally Jade would not take the wound. This is where i have the trouble.

Viking Lad wrote

Avoiding this wound is not part of the fight, and is not done until the fight is over and the results are being applied. If the barbed wire card said "instantly wounded," then it would be unavoidable.

The card reads Instantly lose the fight. To me, that means all cards and abilities have been applied, and the result is.

If a Hero rolls a 1 on any of their Fight Dice while in a Fight with the Zombie, that Hero instantly loses the fight.

As if, soon as the first 1 was rolled, even when using more than 1 die.
If a Hero rolls a 1 on any of their Fight Dice while in a Fight with the Zombie, that Hero instantly loses the fight.

As if after the first 1 is shown, no other dice are considered. Instantly lose. Not instanly wound. Which i did find very interesting in FFP's wording. Its not about being wounded or not. The fight has resolved, due to a 1 being rolled. The resolution is, the Hero has instantly lost.

Instantly lose. No more cards or abilities are allowed. The fight has resolved. What ever cards or abilities you may have the fight is over.

look personnaly i dont care if jade takes the wound or not. Trust me, i have more zombies than heroes have cards and abilities. like i said before, explain this to me, as if i were a 5 year old, how an instant effect is different from a meat clever and barbed wire. Im over automatic, and immediately. A meat clever instantly kills. Barbed wire instantly resolves a fight. Both instanly do not allow for cards and abilities to be used. How do I explain to a group of people how to play this game. If the same term has 2 different meanings. does not compute ????

Its the same instant effect that a zombie is killed and can not play cards and abilites. Its the same instant effect that the hero losses the fight and can not play cards and abilities.

Thats the way i see it, thats the way i call it.

VIking Lad. Im confused by your reason. How come you say Johnny would lose the fight and jade does not take a wound ? Barbed wire says the hero losses. Johnny's abilities says he wins and jade would still loss the fight but not take a wound ?

Jades abilities only prevents a wound when doubles have been rolled. Babed wire says Jade lost the fight, not take a wound. Its not my fault lossing a fight results in a wound.

[vikinglad]

(12-06-2011 09:55 PM)PJON Wrote:  If a Hero rolls a 1 on any of their Fight Dice while in a Fight with the Zombie, that Hero instantly loses the fight.

As if, soon as the first 1 was rolled, even when using more than 1 die.
If a Hero rolls a 1 on any of their Fight Dice while in a Fight with the Zombie, that Hero instantly loses the fight.

As if after the first 1 is shown, no other dice are considered. Instantly lose. Not instanly wound. Which i did find very interesting in FFP's wording. Its not about being wounded or not. The fight has resolved, due to a 1 being rolled. The resolution is, the Hero has instantly lost....

What if jade rolled 2 3s, then used the bat to roll a 1 afterwards? Would you still say she takes the wound, even though her ability activated before the instant effect of the barbed wire? She "used" her ability as soon as she rolled the doubles, allowing her to avoid any wounds that may result from this fight. If she rolls two dice, and gets 2 1s, I don't see how this is different. They both instantly take affect. She instantly loses, but the penalty for losing is avoided. I think this is why FFP chose the "interesting" wording that they did.

Quote:VIking Lad. Im confused by your reason. How come you say Johnny would lose the fight and jade does not take a wound ? Barbed wire says the hero losses. Johnny's abilities says he wins and jade would still loss the fight but not take a wound ?

Jades abilities only prevents a wound when doubles have been rolled. Babed wire says Jade lost the fight, not take a wound. Its not my fault lossing a fight results in a wound.

If Jade rolls 2 3s, and a zed rolls a 4, Jade loses the fight (zed was not fended off or killed). However, she would not take a wound. Her ability does not say that she fends off the zombie, just that she may not take the wound. She could not play that card that lets you kill any zombie fended off in a fight. It changes the outcome of her loss, not the outcome of the fight.

Zombies normally win on ties, but if a zed rolls a 6 against a meat cleaver 6, it still loses because of the "instant" affect of the cleaver. This should work the same for Johnny. He would normally win on a tie, but he loses due to the instant affect of the barbed wire. I believe both Jade and Johnny lose their fight. Johnny's ability changes the outcome of a fight (he wins when he should have lost) while Jade's ability changes the result of losing (you can lose, but you don't take a wound).

[PJON]

Hi Viking Lad.

Ok, this is the mechanic, as I see it. yes ?

Fight begins, both teams roll dice
Cards and abilities are used to modify dice or resolution
Fight is resolved
(event cards, like "Get back you Devil")

Fight Begins; So Jade rolls double 3's then adds the bat, and rolls a 1 vs barbed wire. The fight, is then, resolved, skipping the cards and abilities modifications. If she rolled anything else, yes her ability can be applied. If she rolled a meat clever 6. The fight would have still skipped the modifications, with a win for the hero.

Viking Lad wrote;
If Jade rolls 2 3s, and a zed rolls a 4, Jade loses the fight (zed was not fended off or killed). However, she would not take a wound. Her ability does not say that she fends off the zombie, just that she may not take the wound. She could not play that card that lets you kill any zombie fended off in a fight. It changes the outcome of her loss, not the outcome of the fight

I agree

Let me explain how my simple brain undersatnds this. page 14 of the rule book.

The Fight
heroes roll 2 dice
zombies roll 1. zombies win on ties.

Using cards and abilities - Zombie fight Cards - Hero Combat Cards

http://www.flyingfrogwiki.com/ffpwiki/in..._Abilities

( I would copy paste the whole page, but i dont want The Great and Mighty Sarku to be mad at widdle ole me)

Cards and Abilities
Many cards and character abilities can be used during a fight to add more Fight Dice, re-roll, etc.

Unless stated otherwise, cards and abilities may always be used after the Fight Dice have been rolled to change the outcome.

For example, if a Hero rolls and is currently losing a Fight, he may then use a Hand Weapon’s Combat Bonus: or play a card to cancel that fight or to roll extra Fight Dice, etc.

A fight is only resolved after all players have decided not to use any more cards or abilities.

The only exception to this is that a card may NOT be canceled after it has already caused dice to be rolled (or re-rolled).

Some cards and abilities say that they may be played at any time, ‘except during a fight’. This means you may not play the card from when the Fight Dice are rolled to when the fight is resolved. You may play the card between fighting two different Zombies.


In none of the FFP games are you allowed to use cards or abilites after the fight is resolved.

Resolve the Fight

LNOE Resolving the Fight
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Resolving the Fight

A Fight is only resolved after all players have decided not to use any more cards or abilities.

Once both players have chosen their highest Fight Dice roll and are done using cards and abilities, the fight is resolved as follows:

--------- It is this part where I see the Instant effect takes you in the resolve fight section. Past the choice of using cards and abilites. The fight has been instantly resolved, due to a die roll--------the meat clever 6 cause the zombie to not win, cause they aint there----the barbed 1 has resolved the fight for hero-----( back to the interesting wording by FFP, there is not a Hero Lose description, the card does not say Zombie wins, or hero takes a wound ? )

- If the Zombie wins (has a higher roll or is tied for highest), the Hero takes one Wound.

- If the Hero has a higher roll, the Zombie is Fended Off. The fight ends and both the Hero and Zombie remain in the space, unaffected.

- If the Hero has a higher roll and has rolled doubles on ANY of their Fight Dice (two 5’s for instance), the Zombie takes one Wound (removing it from the board).

Zombies are not hard to Fend Off as the Heroes usually get more dice, giving them a better chance to roll higher. But, it can be a challenge to kill a Zombie without the use of a weapon or ability.

A Fight is only resolved after all players have decided not to use any more cards or abilities. The instant effect of the Barbed wire, has resolved the fight, for you. . The use of abilities and cards have been omitted.

That is how i understand the mechanic. Fight, apply modifications, resolve.

[munkymuddface]

In games like these, there is always the Base Ruleset to set to identify the normal flow of the game, and then abilities and cards that bend and break those base rules. I would say that there is a heirarchy. Individual Cards > Hero Abilities > Basic Rules. Johnny vs Barbed Wire is a great example of how the heirarchy works.

Zombie rolls a 1, Non-Johnny-Hero rolls 1 and 1, normal rules say that zombies win on ties.
Zombie rolls a 1, Johnny rolls 1 and 1, Johnny's ability overrides the normal rules, so he wins on ties.
Barbed Wire rolls a 1, Johnny rolls 1 and 1, Barbed Wire ability overrides Johnny's ability giving the win back to the zombie.

(12-07-2011 03:13 PM)PJON Wrote:  ----( back to the interesting wording by FFP, there is not a Hero Lose description, the card does not say Zombie wins, or hero takes a wound ? )

I think the wording for "Hero Loses the Fight" is because there are Zombie Remains In Play cards that trigger on a Hero Loss. For instance:
Angry Dead
Sacrifice: The Zombie Player(s) must discard a total of 2 cards from hand.
While this card is in play, any time a Hero loses a fight, reveal and discard the top 3 Hero Cards. If this discards the last Hero Card, the Heroes automatically lose.
Remains in Play

Let's add Angry Dead to the Jade w/Garden Shears vs Barbed Wire scenario.
Barbed Wire rolls 1, opting in with the Shears for the initial roll, Jade gets 6, 4, and 4.
Jade's 6 triggers the Garden Shears, dead zombie.
Barbed Wire's 1 triggers Instant loss for Jade. While a wound would normally be applied, since she rolled doubles, the wound is prevented. Even though the zombie is dead, and no wound was given to Jade, it is still technically a loss, and the top 3 cards are discarded.