I saw this over on BGG and thought it was interesting. Any thoghts?
Quote:This is intended to be an open discussion about the following topic. I had an interesting thought the other day -- when will Flying Frog "end" a game, as in no more expansions? What first made me wonder this is the ATOE game board. The original game board had an open-ended road, which connects to the expansion board, which also has an open-ended road. Most people believe that the next board will be the sea coast, "ending" the map. So where do we go from there? Alternate boards? More Hero Pack type expansions ("Hero Pack 1" implies a "Hero Pack 2")? More web suppliments?
My point is, eventually there will seem to be enough to have a compete game. Otherwise, there could be a 200-card Mystery deck, etc. This also obviously applies to LNOE, which is why I posted it here. When are there going to be "enough" cards? Already, people are saying that the decks are getting enormous with all the expansions and suppliments. Where do you think they're going to go? More SOTF-type expansions, with new decks like the survival deck, which is a separate deck?
You can see where I'm gong here. Do games like LNOE and ATOE come to a natural end, where the company goes on to a new game, or do they keep expanding forever? Some would call this "milking," while others would say the more the merrier.
I'm interested to hear what people think, and if Flying Frog feels like chiming in, all the better.
My suspicion is that a game ends when the creators no longer have fun ideas to add to the game. At least, that's when it SHOULD end. If you look at that other Zombies!!! game, you'll see a game which continues to add expansions, but adds nothing new to the game other than more of the same. The expansions from Flying Frog, without exception, have all been something where I can see the love of the game, and I hope that never changes. So I don't think there's a set number, as in, "there will be X-number of expansions for each game, period." My guess is that they will expand a game for as long as they have ideas for it.
Now, even after a game is "ended" in terms of major supplements in the feel of Growing Hunger or Survival of the Fittest, that doesn't mean they won't occasionally come out with character packs or online scenarios or what have you. Character packs add a lot to the game, it's true, but mostly in flavor, not in rules-changes or anything like that. They don't add to the deck size in any meaningful way, they don't create new decks, they don't alter the rules fundamentally, etc. So I can see them continuing to support a game with character packs, online scenarios, etc, for a long time to come.
Well if the next AToE Expansion has a closed Board
we'll know
It seems that FFP has a plan for its Games from
info they have given out it seems that both LNoE & AToE
were thought out well before production.
I think both Games could easily take a City Expansion,
in any case my plastic awaits
OD
Old Dwarf Wrote:It seems that FFP has a plan for its Games from
info they have given out it seems that both LNoE & AToE
were thought out well before production.
I agree. This statement almost implies that the game will come to an "end" because it does seem well-planned out. It's the classic milking/expansionist debate. Both sides have merit.
Hmmm... multiple thoughts on several of the past posts.
I'm not sure how much Flying Frog's 'mini expansions' should count as adding something new. Revenge of the Dead and Stock Up expansions added some cards which used the 'Sacrifice concept', but these were more preview of what was coming in Growing Hunger or could possibly be considered a play test for some rules they were considering. I'm not sure if Zombie Pillage or the Radioactive Grave Dead will do anything outside of their scenarios aside from adding a dot rule and a few cards. The Madness for ATOE really only added some cards.
If the next expansion of ATOE with the shore has a harbor then this open up the door to the concept of a 'world spanning adventure' which would totally rule! I could see someone bringing a mummy to Shadowbrook for an unwrapping ceremony and all the adventures have to board a ship and go to Egypt to put an end to the evil of the mummies curse...
If there is no land route out of the Shadowbrook, Echo Lake and 'shore' map I will cry foul for no other reason than I'm an engineer and I don't see how such an isolated town could be developed. I've been giving the town of Woodhaven the benefit of a doubt and assuming that their is a road going around the board just off of the play area.
Since the ATOE heroes and villain has so much of an impact on the game, and LNOE varies radically with between the scenarios, corner boards and heroes, there will always be the ability to keep these games going even if it is just on a fan level on this webpage (and assuming no eventual 'cease and desist' orders that some of the other gaming companies used int the past). If it ever does disappear I could see a possible model come out like Fantasy Flight Games (the other FFG?) where one of the games might lie fallow for several years and then a second edition comes out which includes aspects of the varying expansions in the basic game and revising some of the rules and probably a next generation of figures.
Sorry about the length...
Patient Zero Wrote:I'm not sure how much Flying Frog's 'mini expansions' should count as adding something new. Revenge of the Dead and Stock Up expansions added some cards which used the 'Sacrifice concept', but these were more preview of what was coming in Growing Hunger or could possibly be considered a play test for some rules they were considering. I'm not sure if Zombie Pillage or the Radioactive Grave Dead will do anything outside of their scenarios aside from adding a dot rule and a few cards. The Madness for ATOE really only added some cards.
Yes, each by itself doesn't add much, but all together the decks are huge. I have trouble believing that they can successfully keep adding to the decks before they're prohibatively large. Just a thought.
Ah, well you might have a point.... It takes me a rather long time to shuffle the decks and feel that they are properly randomized. Any new cards for LNOE decks can be added in per 'dot rule' assuming that the newer deck cards have a way to identify the dot rule they go to. This means that Flying Frog will now be deck building per scenario instead of us. I wonder if that's how the SOTF works or what they are setting up....
An interesting reason for a future 2nd edition reboot of LNOE would be to set up all the cards with markers to allow quick scenario deck building.
Thinking along these lines is really making my head hurt... I'm probably off on a loon anyhow.
I just played a game of LNOE today. The Hero and Zombie decks are a good inch and a half each. To fully randomize in my mind the a deck needs to be separated into 1/2 inch decks and shuffled three times, then cut all decks and shift one over, shuffle each deck 3 times, cut and shift each one over and then shuffle three times and recombine. I admit there is probably an easier way than shuffling the hero deck and the zombie deck 27 times each.
Since the Library and the Museum town section was in play which has building abilities to that include shuffling, I (as the zombie player) tried to tied to keep the heroes from the building mainly to stop them from causing the reshuffling. I couldn't stop him from messing with the *#@xx!* push broom.
So, given that I will say: I guess I now hope that these decks don't significantly grow anymore just to lighten up my shuffling....
So to the Concerned, I got to admit there is a reason to be concerned...
Since, so far, each add-on adds very little each time(scenario and a few extra cards), it seems as it will be some time before the total of the components creates a game of unplayable length. Fortunately FF seems to have planned it that way.