jade vs barbed wire ?

[Pred]

wow, I really haven't read what this forum is about, lol, but I know
its PJ trying to prove a point. She always backed me in the past,
so blindly without reading the book of forums above, I side with PJ.

[PJON]

Hi.

So im totally lost and confused on everyone logic. I guess it is me then.

munkymuddface Wrote:
Barbed Wire's 1 triggers Instant loss for Jade. So, an instant loss doesnt really mean you instantly lose. You can still appliy abilities. So, then Johnny does win a fight when all 1's are rolled. Your appling the ability after the fight has been resolved. Why does Johnny's ability apply differently then Jade's ?


While a wound would normally be applied, since she rolled doubles, the wound is prevented. Even though the zombie is dead, and no wound was given to Jade, it is still technically a loss, and the top 3 cards are discarded.




Fine. So if there is an instant effect, Heroes can use abilities. Why not cards also ? Maybe use the pitch fork to re-roll the 1 ? Every thing i read reference "cards and abilities" together. Both in the same sequence or action during the fight. So, if Jade can use an ability, cards should be allowed also.

Explain what the difference is, when a hero rolls a 1 vs barbed wire, why the hero is not allowed to use cards also ? Then explain how cards and abilities are applied as seperate actions ?

[munkymuddface]

(12-07-2011 06:37 PM)PJON Wrote:  Fine. So if there is an instant effect, Heroes can use abilities. Why not cards also ? Maybe use the pitch fork to re-roll the 1 ? Every thing i read reference "cards and abilities" together. Both in the same sequence or action during the fight. So, if Jade can use an ability, cards should be allowed also.

Explain what the difference is, when a hero rolls a 1 vs barbed wire, why the hero is not allowed to use cards also ? Then explain how cards and abilities are applied as seperate actions ?

My stance on Jade's ability is that it does not change the resolution of a fight. In fact, her ability pretty much requires her to lose a fight for it to even trigger. Since it triggers on a loss, that means that the fight has been resolved. Since the fight has been resolved, both sides have agreed to stop playing cards and abilities that could affect the outcome of the fight, which is what "Instantly" prevents from happening.

If we break a fight down to stages, it would look something like this:
A - Roll Fight dice
B - Play cards or abilities to alter the outcome (add fight dice, reroll fight dice, etc)
C - Check for Fight resolution
D - assign wounds
Barbed Wire rolling a 1 basically jumps from A to C, skipping B. Jade's ability would trigger at D and checks to see if she rolled any doubles in A.

Now I don't agree with your statement of: "So if there is an instant effect, Heroes can use abilities." It all depends on the ability and when it is used. Sally's Lucky ability, for instance, is used during a fight to force rerolls. However, since it would trigger during B, she does not get a chance to use it against a Barbed Wire that rolled a 1.

[vikinglad]

Well said munkymuddface. I feel like it works pretty much this way too, except that I think Jade's ability activates in step A rather than D. As soon as she rolls doubles, she instantly becomes invulnerable to any damage done this fight. If she wins, it is wasted. If she loses, it helps. If she rolls doubles at the same time that an "instant" zombie effect (ie barbed wire) takes place, than those two instant effects both happen (just like barbed wire vs cleaver), meaning she loses but does not get wounded.

---

(12-07-2011 06:37 PM)PJON Wrote:  Barbed Wire's 1 triggers Instant loss for Jade. So, an instant loss doesnt really mean you instantly lose.

Yes, you instantly lose. You must make a distinction between losing and taking a wound. If you stand next to an explosion, you can be wounded without losing a fight. If you are Jade, you can lose a fight without being wounded. They are not one in the same.

Quote:Why does Johnny's ability apply differently then Jade's ?

Because Johnny's ability changes the winner of the fight, while Jades ability does not. Rather, it alters the outcome of losing a fight. If Jade's card said "wins any fight in which she rolls doubles," then she would still be wounded by the barbed wire, as the fight would instantly result in her loss with no way to change it.

[Zinthos]

Quote:Because Johnny's ability changes the winner of the fight, while Jades ability does not. Rather, it alters the outcome of losing a fight. If Jade's card said "wins any fight in which she rolls doubles," then she would still be wounded by the barbed wire, as the fight would instantly result in her loss with no way to change it.

Well said and I agree completely.
The "Instantly Lose" takes us to resolution, and dictates the result of the resolution but has said nothing beyond that. Or, if you prefer, it skips us to the "Zombie Wins/Hero Loss" branch of resolution, but again not beyond that. The card text support us moving to this point, but doesn't support skipping ahead past it. There is no "Cancel fight" aspect to the card, the way it is written.
Abilities or cards that effect whether a loss causes a wound, or could only be used when a Hero Loss occurs are now applicable.
Eg. Rachelle's Intuition (the 6+ thing) still works, as would "Just a scratch", and the zombie player could still use "Knocked Away".

Also, consider the text vs Unnecessary Self Sacrifice, which cancels a pending fight and deals a wound. Here Jade's ability would be useless, while Rachelle's would still work.

[PJON]

Yeah, someone broke it down like a 5 year old yeah

If we break a fight down to stages, it would look something like this:
A - Roll Fight dice
B - Play cards or abilities to alter the outcome (add fight dice, reroll fight dice, etc)
C - Check for Fight resolution
D - assign wounds
Barbed Wire rolling a 1 basically jumps from A to C, skipping B. Jade's ability would trigger at D and checks to see if she rolled any doubles in A.

I see it different, but hold on....

A- roll fight dice
B- assign wounds
C- Play cards and abilities
D- Resolve Fight ( Take Wounds )

I see the Instant effect taking place in Step A and moving directly to Step D

You only going to play cards or abilites if your losing. Step A determines Step B, Step C alters Step B, and determines Step D

If we break a fight down to stages, it would look something like this:
A - Roll Fight dice
B - Play cards or abilities to alter the outcome (add fight dice, reroll fight dice, etc)
C - Check for Fight resolution
D - assign wounds
Barbed Wire rolling a 1 basically jumps from A to C, skipping B. Jade's ability would trigger at D and checks to see if she rolled any doubles in A.

I dont understand the jumping back in your procedure. Your skipping Step B, Abilities, and then using it in Step D. When step D is assign wounds not use abilitis ? You even agree your skipping Step B.

How can you skip Step B then Do Step B agian in Step D

I do agree, it does skip from A to C. The fight is resolved though.

---

FINAL ANSWER FROM FLYING FROG

Fw: LNOE Rules questionWednesday, December 7, 2011 10:10 PM
From: "Mary Beth Magallanes" <marybeth@flyingfrog.net>Add sender to ContactsTo: kristinalives@yahoo.comHi,
You can find the answer to your question here: http://flyingfrogwiki.com/ffpwiki/index....arbed_Wire

Thank you,
Mary Beth Magallanes
Flying Frog Productions, LLC

From: Flying Frog Productions
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:27 AM
To: jason@flyingfrog.net ; mary Beth Magallanes
Subject: Fw: LNOE Rules question


Chris Kemnow
Flying Frog Productions, LLC
----- Original Message -----
From: Kristina Valkyrie
To: Flying Frog Productions
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 9:47 AM
Subject: LNOE Rules question

Hi. I am unsure how to resolve a fight. I would like your understanding on the situation.

Jade has a meat clever and is in a fight with a Barbed wire Zombie. Jade rolls a 6 and a 1. The Zombie rolls a 6. What is the final result ? Who has a wound ? Who is killed ? Who wins ?

Thank you

[Zinthos]

Well, I think its nice that the Flying Frog ruling agrees with what seems to be the majority view here. Thats a small plus to our presumption of competence.