A few of my own rules

[serdel]

I was thinking about the game mechanics and it stunned me that few so obvious to me are missing. They are obvious because before board games I had experience with battle games and the following points are common in most battle systems. My points are:
a) Now the game brings no bonus for fighting multiple zombies. In my opinion the game should bring some rules for that situation, for example - each zombie gains an additional fight dice for every other zombie in the same place during the fight phase. And the same goes for multiple heroes vs. one zombie.
b) When a hero wants to leave a space with a zombie he rolls a dice and subtracts 1 for each zombie in that space. On a result of 2+ he can move away normally. I was also thinking about giving some handicap in the fight phase this turn if he fails(the hero wanted to run away but tripped or sprained an ankle so it's more difficult to fight).
C) When a hero shoots to a space with a zombie and another hero, after hitting he rolls a dice. Subtract 1 for each hero in that space. On a result of 2+ the zombie is hit. If the roll fails a hero is hit (if there are more than 1 hero roll a dice to randomly detect which one was hit).

I had also posted them on bgg forum when discussing the issue of 'too weak zombies'. As I mentioned I consider those rule a blatant shortage in the game since they are in almost every skirmish battle system and obviously bring more reality to the game. And a) hurts me the most. I recently had a situation (also described on bgg forum) when Jenny with a chainsaw and crowbar deliberately moved into a space so that 3 zombies were forced to attack here due to Zombie hunger. That simply allowed her to slain them one by one. It turned out later that the zombies were escaping from here, not the opposite, sicne with those 2 weapons she was unstoppable and 'immortal'. I consider this ridiculous and a total failure in the game atmosphere.

I was also wondering about some cards that could support my rules. You can have hero cards (event/items) that give you bonuses. For example an event 'precise eye' adds 1 for the hitting dice when shooting to a zombie/hero group. Or an item 'gun sight' can give you an ability to re-roll this dice. Next an event card 'speed' can re-roll the 'avoid fight' roll. And more over a card "Come on! I'll take you all on !!!' (Ok, an almost quote from transformers 2 :>) to give a hero an additional dice for every more-then-one zombie in a fight :> (or maybe cancel the zombie bonus dices). You can think of equivalents for the zombie cards.

What do you guys think about that?

[mqstout]

a) There are plenty of fight cards that add this bonus. If you look over the board, each space covers a pretty significant area. The opposite (heroes vs zombies) also has its cards for this already. I don't like it one bit. The zombies don't need any boosts except when the players are abusing a couple tactics that come out rarely (hangar/flare gun) or awful cards (fence post).

b) Also don't like it, for the same reasons. Especially indoors there's already a hell of a lot of tension between "do I stay and search and fight or do I get the hell out of here?" There's also already enough randomness in the game -- without more.

c) This one, I think you're onto something. I don't think I feel for exactly how it's worded, but the general idea of it clicks. What about firing at zeds in the same space as the hero himself?

I don't like your card suggestions. Even ignoring that I'm not keen on your variants, most cards generally need to be fairly broad to be worth much. One of the most-discussed cards on here, "Sprained Ankle", is probably that because it's a niche card; that is, it's only marginally useful when its situation doesn't come up. (Others include "Unstoppable".) Add too many more very situational cards and you have problems.

Want an example of this? Play one of LNOE's big competitors/predecessors Zombies!!!. Nearly every item in it is specific to a tile on the board that not only has to be out, but you also have to be in that tile to use it (which may be far from where you are and need to go). In nearly all circumstances, they're worthless to draw.

[vikinglad]

I think this game is already quite balanced, and if anything, I think more people have a hard time winning as zombies than as heroes. I don't have much battle game experience, but I think there is one aspect of LNOE that makes it different than those: your enemy is the undead. They are not intelligent, trained fighters that are going to try to hide behind a human shield when getting shot at or out-maneuver you when you try to run away. They are slow, rotting fleshbags with only one thing on their minds: BRAINS! Combat bonus for having multiple Zombies in a square? The zeds are not working together cooperatively to strategically attack you. They are probably just as likely to fight amongst themselves over your tasty brains. As it stands, fighting 3 or more zombies while unarmed is extremely dangerous. Also, while shooting, the heroes could totally yell "Duck" before letting loose with the shotgun. Humans would hit the dirt and zombies would be sitting ducks.

While your rules add realism to combat between intelligent beings, I do not think they fit well into LNOE. They would have to be play-tested and balanced very well before being fair. They seem to favor the zombies, and from what I have read here and experienced at home, the zombies have no problem dining on our heroes.

[serdel]

My ideas come mainly because of the fact that I am used to those from battle systems - hey reflect the reality. Maybe they favor zombies but that is not my intention (although I believe that zombies are not the stronger force, but that's a discussion for a separate thread). Now we need to wonder how do they match the zombie world. Ok I highly doubt anyone had seen a zombie so I guess movies are our only hook here.

a) well I don't think that we can argue about that - one man vs. one zombie is much much easier fight(for the human) than vs 2 zombies or 3 zombies. You mention that the spaces are big and represent a lot of space on the board.. so why is that the hero still needs to fight zombies in the same space as he is?
mqstout - what cards do you have in mind? Are they in any expansion? I only have the base game now. Any way the rule seems logical to me in a way that it should always in play, not in a card.
b) this one is my less favorite one, since zombies in deed are slow and dumb. We can remember the beginning of Zombieland when Columbus was running around the parking lot to loose the zombies. There are also more examples for that. So in fact I can give you credit for that one, that it can be easier for a human to just avoid a zombie. However 2,3,4... not as easy now - that's why the roll is 2+. Sth goes wrong - the hero tripped, a leg got trapped in a rotten floor board..
c) I don't think that 'shouting is a good explanation here. I guess that a human would be far more distracted by zombies crawling at him to notice any shouting from the surrounding. And a hero can easily hit his own fellow. This also reminds me of movie scenes where some guy is hesitating to shoot into a human-zombie fight not to hurt the other guy. That is a risk to take. But again, zombies are slow and don't doge the bullets so it's easier to aim - thats why 2+...

But thanks for the contribution guys :>

[vikinglad]

(01-12-2011 10:58 PM)serdel Wrote:  You mention that the spaces are big and represent a lot of space on the board.. so why is that the hero still needs to fight zombies in the same space as he is?

The zeds' unquenchable desire for brains draws him to the hero if he is in this range. To fight here, the hero would have had to willingly ran here, stayed in place with some zombies, or had some zombies encroach upon him. In any case, his sweet brains are calling to the undead, and they are answering.

Quote:b) this one is my less favorite one, since zombies in deed are slow and dumb. We can remember the beginning of Zombieland when Columbus was running around the parking lot to loose the zombies. There are also more examples for that. So in fact I can give you credit for that one, that it can be easier for a human to just avoid a zombie. However 2,3,4... not as easy now - that's why the roll is 2+. Sth goes wrong - the hero tripped, a leg got trapped in a rotten floor board..

There are cards like locked door and tripped that can negatively affect an escaping hero's movement, as well as cards like Overconfidence that lock him in a square. Although in real life there is always a chance for something to go wrong, I would say this play mechanic was moved from dice rolls to the cards to keep it from happening more than it should.

Quote:c) I don't think that 'shouting is a good explanation here. I guess that a human would be far more distracted by zombies crawling at him to notice any shouting from the surrounding. And a hero can easily hit his own fellow. This also reminds me of movie scenes where some guy is hesitating to shoot into a human-zombie fight not to hurt the other guy. That is a risk to take. But again, zombies are slow and don't dodge the bullets so it's easier to aim - thats why 2+...

Regardless of my current circumstances, if someone stood 15 feet away from me (range 2?), aimed a shotgun, and yelled "Duck," I would duck. I can see what you are saying, though. It does come up in movies sometimes. This one would be interesting to try to incorporate. It should maybe be different for different gun types, with a card called "Hit the Dirt!" that would keep you from having to take the "Roll to hit heroes" roll.

[mqstout]

I guess all of them might be expansions. Here's one example: http://flyingfrogwiki.com/ffpwiki/index....h_and_Claw

Remember this tidbit: If the hero ends his turn in a space with zombies, he'll have to fight ALL of those zombies on his turn. And then, again on the zombie turn, he'll have to fight them. That's pretty devastating even without zombies having other bonuses for mobs. Zombies are already hard to kill (they win on ties, and to kill them you need to have both the highest die and have doubles...). I doubt there's a way to make zombies work in swarms without making them suck individually.

On the flip side, heroes don't always work together. Look at all the movie tropes -- half the time, the survivors are as much a harm to one another than the zombies are! Within LNOE, we already have the cards "Bickering" and "Don't trust 'em" and "Teen Angst" to bring that to the forefront. LNOE is supposed to play like a movie. People don't work together often or well without being trained to do so, especially under the stress of fighting zombies. (Work together situations exist too: being in the same space on the zombie turn where you split up the zombies instead of each of you fighting them all, using your items (first aid) on an ally, the card Unnecessary Self Sacrifice, the hero Nurse Becky, and all of the various townsfolk events).

Now if you want "swarm tactics", check out FFP's other game that uses the LNOE "engine": Invasion from Outer Space. It was built from the ground-up with the martians operating in packs, and getting better and stronger as they work in these packs.

[serdel]

(01-12-2011 11:28 PM)vikinglad Wrote:  The zeds' unquenchable desire for brains draws him to the hero if he is in this range. To fight here, the hero would have had to willingly ran here, stayed in place with some zombies, or had some zombies encroach upon him. In any case, his sweet brains are calling to the undead, and they are answering.

And that's why if there is more than 1 zombie in a space they all have an appetite for his brain and all march at him:> Not only I consider this reasonable but quite often it's an only chance for the zombies to kill a hero with a goon weapon like chainsaw or baseball bat or anything else that adds an extra die. You can only pump a zombie to max of 3 dices - the hero can have more. Add a crowbar and there you have it - a hero very hard to kill (in our game it was impossible - he/she was immortal running and slaughtering the zombies who had no choice to run away..). And OK I can see that in 1 vs 1 fight a zombie has better chances towards a single human if the guy is vulnerable. But as soon as he gets some weapon it's more likely for a human to kill the zombie. And that's nicely mirrored in the game. But if the hero it's facing 2 or 3 zombies it's far more difficult for him - and the game brings nothing to that.

(01-12-2011 11:28 PM)vikinglad Wrote:  There are cards like locked door and tripped that can negatively affect an escaping hero's movement, as well as cards like Overconfidence that lock him in a square. Although in real life there is always a chance for something to go wrong, I would say this play mechanic was moved from dice rolls to the cards to keep it from happening more than it should.

Yeah I think your right. In fact I can see that this rule (talking about my own) would probably be used the most often in the game and bring more dice rolling...

(01-12-2011 11:28 PM)vikinglad Wrote:  Regardless of my current circumstances, if someone stood 15 feet away from me (range 2?), aimed a shotgun, and yelled "Duck," I would duck. I can see what you are saying, though. It does come up in movies sometimes. This one would be interesting to try to incorporate. It should maybe be different for different gun types, with a card called "Hit the Dirt!" that would keep you from having to take the "Roll to hit heroes" roll.

I guess that bringing range here could confuse the rules a little bit (well for me it's not a big confusion but I understand that board games designers try to simplify the rules). But let's say If the shot is made from a distance of 3 or more you do the rolling. Although I am still not quite convinced by this. I mean it often happens at those movies with a simple pistol not a sniper gun. And I can understand that - gun is a powerful weapon exceptionally for inexperience shooter and can cause a lot of damage accidentally. But for example the 'law enforced' heroes can have a rule of avoiding this roll buy having a sure hand. It also wonders me why they don't have any additional rules for fire arms since they are much more experienced shooters than rest of the gang

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(01-12-2011 11:58 PM)mqstout Wrote:  I guess all of them might be expansions. Here's one example: http://flyingfrogwiki.com/ffpwiki/index....h_and_Claw

And that's exactly what I believe should be happening each time.

(01-12-2011 11:58 PM)mqstout Wrote:  Remember this tidbit: If the hero ends his turn in a space with zombies, he'll have to fight ALL of those zombies on his turn. And then, again on the zombie turn, he'll have to fight them. That's pretty devastating even without zombies having other bonuses for mobs. Zombies are already hard to kill (they win on ties, and to kill them you need to have both the highest die and have doubles...). I doubt there's a way to make zombies work in swarms without making them suck individually.

Yes fighting all of the zombies is reasonable but there are just plain simple fights all the time. And again - after the games of having and overpowered heroes (it wasn't only once) I don't consider zombies so tough any more... I just consider this realistic - fighting 2 zombies is more difficult than 1.

(01-12-2011 11:58 PM)mqstout Wrote:  On the flip side, heroes don't always work together. Look at all the movie tropes -- half the time, the survivors are as much a harm to one another than the zombies are! Within LNOE, we already have the cards "Bickering" and "Don't trust 'em" and "Teen Angst" to bring that to the forefront. LNOE is supposed to play like a movie. People don't work together often or well without being trained to do so, especially under the stress of fighting zombies. (Work together situations exist too: being in the same space on the zombie turn where you split up the zombies instead of each of you fighting them all, using your items (first aid) on an ally, the card Unnecessary Self Sacrifice, the hero Nurse Becky, and all of the various townsfolk events).

Yes you are right but in those movies misunderstanding between people happen rarely and it usually considers one individual - and this is perfectly mirrored in the game by the cards you listed. But remember how often it is that they cooperate together when fighting the zombies, standing side by side, covering their back.

(01-12-2011 11:58 PM)mqstout Wrote:  Now if you want "swarm tactics", check out FFP's other game that uses the LNOE "engine": Invasion from Outer Space. It was built from the ground-up with the martians operating in packs, and getting better and stronger as they work in these packs.

Bo I don't want a swarm tactics although it's quite common in the movies - that is in fact the only thing that makes zombies powerful when you think about it. They are slow and dumb. But the problem is that they come from all sides at the same time at you. If they would stand in a nice line coming 1 by 1 there's no problem - you can take them until you get tired. But the 'reality' is that if they are coming they are attacking at the same time.

[vikinglad]

(01-13-2011 12:01 AM)serdel Wrote:  for example the 'law enforced' heroes can have a rule of avoiding this roll buy having a sure hand. It also wonders me why they don't have any additional rules for fire arms since they are much more experienced shooters than rest of the gang

Dude, I have wondered this too. I wish the law enforcement heroes, and military for that case, had a constant bonus when shooting the revolver, at least. Sometimes, when fate takes over, it is ridiculous how often I miss with the sheriff's revolver! Also, point blank (same square) should be a (near?) guaranteed kill, with a roll to see if you are out of ammo. Range playing a factor would create cool dilemas where you could try to get closer or take a shot from where you are. A scope (or laser sight) would be a neat card for the revolver, too, to add range or make closer shots easier. Shotgun could maybe deal more damage but hit on a higher roll at closer range (only relevant for enemies with more than one wound).

[Orguss]

Guns are overpowered. Instant popping has to be balanced. You say point blank shot should be an automatic hit, who's to say it isn't? Remember in zombie movies only the head counts. The sheriff unloads a round or two before popping him in the head.

[Who is CA Jones?]

Zombies don't work together as they are mindless geeks that are hungry for brains, so them being in the same space does not make them more powerful (unless there is a fight card involved). This isn't your standard player vs. player game, so the different rules makes it interesting.