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thanatos · 09-13-2011, 09:01 PM

I see your point, but I'd point you right back to that phrase "ANY time." The fact that the gun is being discarded immediately does not mean that it is an event that happens outside of time, just like the Meat Cleaver's bonus doesn't place it outside of time - it simply places it in time before the fight has a chance to resolve. The Meat Cleaver COULD be countered using Caught off Guard, though, even though it is a fight card, as its effects come into play before any dice are rolled.

FF tends to be very specific in their wording for a reason. If ammo did not apply to resilient, it would read something along the lines of "Any time a hero fails an ammo check, you may discard Ammo in place of the gun."

The fact that they simply said "ANY time" indicates that they fully meant for ammo to be an effective counter to resilient, just like Father Joseph's Strength of Spirit ability could negate Resilient as it was being played.

PJON · 09-13-2011, 09:26 PM

Hi, I know, i dont shut up

Using known wording

The meat clever does not state. On a roll of 6 that Zombie is Killed. It states immediately kill. Even if the Zombie player rolls a 6 as well and wins the fight. Immediately kill.

Resilience does not state Discard that gun. Its states immediately discard that gun

Im trying to hear you. I am definitely listening. I just... cant get past Immediately

thanatos · 09-13-2011, 09:31 PM

lol...that's OK, I don't shut up either (except for about 3 hours, starting now), so I can hardly fault you for sharing such a fine quality with me Zombie17

.

You are right that the gun is being immediately discarded, but that also triggers Ammo's usage condition, which is that a gun can be rescued from the discard pile absolutely any time something happens to send it there, so even though it is being discarded immediately, that still qualifies as a time that it is being discarded.

Now, the hero can't throw their gun on the discard pile, then look at their items and say, "Hey, wait, I have Ammo!" No, they have to say, "OK, I have to discard the gun, but I have Ammo, so I will discard Ammo instead."

Unfortunately, "Any time" would seem to trump "immediately."

PJON · 09-13-2011, 09:38 PM

Hi, your almost there. Yes, Immediatley discard that gun. (period) there is no but, there is no anytime. The time is here and now, immediatley.

Pred · (This post was last modified: 09-13-2011 10:02 PM by Pred.)

Ok I like playing Heroes as much as I do Zombies so I'm not picking sides as far as that goes but the Zombies have this argument Hands Down! or Cut Off! Which ever you prefer.

Nitro and Thanetos your argument is that Resilient refers to the Hero using up all its ammo and there for if they had a ammo card you can still keep the gun correct? well listen to what your saying, you say use up ALL your ammo so if you wanna press that argument I think you should not only discard the gun but as well as the extra ammo. Personally I think that is unfair, and I think it should just be taken as it reads, "Immediately discard Gun", saying that you wouldnt have time to use your extra ammo card to save the gun, and keep your ammo for another gun you acquire and use the ammo for when it breaks/out of ammo.

Which is where PJ throws in the biggest asset to this argument, how would you get rid of the Meat Cleaver? only way is "It's stuck" and that's because it brings equality to the decks and that's how its supposed to be. Its the same exact thing as using this for the Gun or any Gun with or without extra ammo. If Resilient is play on a Gun it is "IMMEDIATELY" gone and wouldn't have time to reload it for whatever reason.

That's my argument and I think it stands firm

nitro9090 · (This post was last modified: 09-13-2011 10:36 PM by nitro9090.)

Sorry, I still disagree and so does Jason C. Hill.

Look at the bottom of this page: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/2645...lient-card

Bam!

Pred · 09-13-2011, 10:46 PM

That is correct. The card is played when a Zombie is killed to also discard the gun. As noted above, it represents unloading all of your ammo into the Zombie to kill it.

Players who have gotten the web exclusive 'Stock Up!' Supplement also know that there is a Zombie Card included called 'Unstoppable' which prevents a Zombie from being killed by a ranged attack (including an exploding Gas Marker).

- Jason

Jason C. Hill
Flying Frog Productions

-well than that would completely contradict what he wrote just a few post before it(witch I posted above). Witch goes back to my statement if all your ammo is used than resilient would discard the extra ammo card as well. If anyone knows how to contact Jason I would like for him to read this forum with everyone's thoughts on the detail. If he still said yes, than so be it, but as for your link its a contradicting thread.

nitro9090 · 09-13-2011, 10:52 PM

Pred, it is very explicit. I am sorry, you have lost.

Pred · (This post was last modified: 09-13-2011 11:17 PM by Pred.)

I wasn't trying to win anything, like I said, I could care less either way, but if you were at my House playing this game, and I threw a Resilient card down after killing my Zombie, and you tried to throw ammo in to save it, It wouldn't fly. Unless you wanted it to fly to the discard pile with the gun.
Jason commented on that thread 3 months apart from what he originally posted that the Gun is out of ammo its discarded. Knowingly I'm positive that he is a busy man and likes to put feed back on his games to make customers feel good about his product by giving insight, he probably just said yes with out giving it much thought (I would've too). But when you take into consideration of whats being discussed here on this thread I would almost bet that he would agree with PJ and I. If he read this thread and posted that although we have valuable points but his intention was to still allow Ammo to be used to save the gun, than by all means I would change the way I play it at my house.
Like I said earlier I am not trying to win a Contest I am only trying to state my opinion on the question that was asked. If the thread you had posted with Jason's remark on the matter had be more than a simple yes,with an explanation behind it, I would agree with you. But, with that post being 3 months apart, that statement would be held in contempt for being out of context and ruled for the jury to exempt that post in question.

nitro9090 · 09-14-2011, 12:00 AM

He is the arbiter of this game and has made his ruling official, there were no ifs and/or buts about it. Did you ever think he didn't give an explanation because it wasn't needed. If you choose to play the house rule that you can't use ammo to defend against resilient then so be it, but please don't call people's integrity into question to win an argument over a board game, because nobody wins.