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D153453D · 02-11-2011, 01:52 AM

(02-10-2011 06:23 PM)iamadoorknob Wrote:
(02-09-2011 02:12 AM)D153453D Wrote: You would be correct that the Hero could then tie them up indefinitely. However, my rule states that a Zombie unable to reach the Hero (due to failed climbing, diagonal movement,etc..) allows a Zombie to move to any space within that 8 adjacent space radius (the Zombie Hunger Radius).

That still doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because by what you've just described, you could have an outlay like this:

XX|X
XH|X
XX|Z

With the X's being empty spaces, H is a hero, Z being the zombie, and the line being a red wall

so then, since the zombie can't climb up, it could instead move to any of the 8 radius spaces, like this?:

XX|X
XH|X
ZX|X

or even like this?:

ZX|X
XH|X
XX|X

Because the zombie is moving inside the zombie hunger radius in both of those instances.

It just doesn't make sense that the zombie couldn't get up, so he could suddenly appear in the building, on the other side of the hero. It also makes those second-story buildings a death trap because the zombie is guaranteed to make it inside and much more likely to trap the heroes than if they were in a normal building.

It makes sense, it's just not clicking with you.

Here a Z can only climb orthangonally, but oh no! The Hero is diagonal to the Z!

XX|X
XH|X
XX|Z

The Z does not have to position himself in front of the Hero in order the climb because it is still within Zombie Hunger. Instead the zombie climbs the wall in front of him, which is STILL IN THE RADIUS OF ZOMBIE HUNGER. The lucky Z rolls a 5.

XX|X
XH|X
XZ|X

Basically any move is legal within those 8 spaces. The only illegal move would be to LEAVE THE ZOMBIE HUNGER RADIUS.

No you cant just teleport the zombie anywhere in those 8 spaces. It has to be a legal move.

Make sense?

Ryuk · 02-16-2011, 03:01 AM

Finally got things printed up. Went with Office Max, card stock $1.25 each 11x17 sheet. Very pleased with the quality of copies that I got there.

The way that the fires spread reminds me of how the diseases spread in Pandemic. It seems very cool and I want to love it....
I just can't seem to understand it.
D153453D, you seem to open to helping others understand your new rules... I hope you have some patience with me and give it your best shot. (Please don't just quote the text from your rulebook. I've read it over and over, that's why I'm here.)

1) When you refer to "placing markers facing the orientation with the middle board", is this just another way of saying that all players need to know what is considered to be the "12 o'clock" position i.e.- top - (the current Fire Intensity level of each marker)? Could a group of players say that all markers current level be the number pointing to say... the Hero draw deck-- placed off to the left of the entire board?
2) Also on page 4, "During this phase the Fire Marker with the highest Fire Intensity, a single die is rolled to determine which direction it spreads." (I've tried to correct what I feel are some typos.) Whereas I haven't had a chance yet to playtest anything, isn't it very possible that more than one Fire Marker could have the same high number? Does the Zombie player get to choose which marker to roll for in case of ties, (is he only allowed to roll for one 'high' marker?) Or does the Zombie player roll for each marker that is tied for 'highest'?
3) As pointed out in your previous reply, "When a Fire Marker is placed on the board, either from rolling a 1-4 (or a 5 when the Marker is currently at 4), or when a Burning Zombie is killed... it is placed with the Fire Intensity 'set' at 4." Is this correct?
4) From page 5, Extinguishing Fire... From the picture examples where the Hero has rolled a '6'... When determining this aspect, does one simply subtract the amount one wants to apply to Extinguishing and the remainder is what is available for movement? If the Hero in this same example had rolled a '3', would the Hero not move and the Intensity be turned to '1'?
5) For me, the most confusing part of the rules for fire is the picture and wording on page 6 below Gasoline... The red dotted lines and picture seem to be cut off. Are markers that touch one another orthogonally considered to be one fire?
Under the picture it reads, "Fire A must be rolled for separately then Fire B." This goes back to my question 2. I was under the impression that the Zombie player only rolls for the highest marker. Instead, does the Zombie player roll for the highest markers first, then the next lowest, and so on for each fire... not each marker?

This is probably going to take a couple exchanges between us and I hope you don't take my questions as any sort of criticism. I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate all that you've made and downloaded for us...
I guess I'm just dense...
(It's actually pronounced "Dennis")

D153453D · 02-16-2011, 03:32 AM

(02-16-2011 03:01 AM)Ryuk Wrote: Finally got things printed up. Went with Office Max, card stock $1.25 each 11x17 sheet. Very pleased with the quality of copies that I got there.

The way that the fires spread reminds me of how the diseases spread in Pandemic. It seems very cool and I want to love it....
I just can't seem to understand it.
D153453D, you seem to open to helping others understand your new rules... I hope you have some patience with me and give it your best shot. (Please don't just quote the text from your rulebook. I've read it over and over, that's why I'm here.)

1) When you refer to "placing markers facing the orientation with the middle board", is this just another way of saying that all players need to know what is considered to be the "12 o'clock" position i.e.- top - (the current Fire Intensity level of each marker)? Could a group of players say that all markers current level be the number pointing to say... the Hero draw deck-- placed off to the left of the entire board?
2) Also on page 4, "During this phase the Fire Marker with the highest Fire Intensity, a single die is rolled to determine which direction it spreads." (I've tried to correct what I feel are some typos.) Whereas I haven't had a chance yet to playtest anything, isn't it very possible that more than one Fire Marker could have the same high number? Does the Zombie player get to choose which marker to roll for in case of ties, (is he only allowed to roll for one 'high' marker?) Or does the Zombie player roll for each marker that is tied for 'highest'?
3) As pointed out in your previous reply, "When a Fire Marker is placed on the board, either from rolling a 1-4 (or a 5 when the Marker is currently at 4), or when a Burning Zombie is killed... it is placed with the Fire Intensity 'set' at 4." Is this correct?
4) From page 5, Extinguishing Fire... From the picture examples where the Hero has rolled a '6'... When determining this aspect, does one simply subtract the amount one wants to apply to Extinguishing and the remainder is what is available for movement? If the Hero in this same example had rolled a '3', would the Hero not move and the Intensity be turned to '1'?
5) For me, the most confusing part of the rules for fire is the picture and wording on page 6 below Gasoline... The red dotted lines and picture seem to be cut off. Are markers that touch one another orthogonally considered to be one fire?
Under the picture it reads, "Fire A must be rolled for separately then Fire B." This goes back to my question 2. I was under the impression that the Zombie player only rolls for the highest marker. Instead, does the Zombie player roll for the highest markers first, then the next lowest, and so on for each fire... not each marker?

This is probably going to take a couple exchanges between us and I hope you don't take my questions as any sort of criticism. I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate all that you've made and downloaded for us...
I guess I'm just dense...
(It's actually pronounced "Dennis")

1) Yes. It dosen't really matter I suppose as long as everyone knows which direction. I just chose that because it would then live up with the center board's 1,2,3,4,5,6 Hero's Choice, Zombie's Choice text.

2) Yes multiple Fire tokens with the same highest numbers are BOTH rolled. You can determine which goes first. (Diagram on page 6 under Gasoline)

3) Yes. Always 4.

4) Yes. It is subtracted essentially. Think of it as each movement he/she stops the fire out once.

5) The Diagram on Page 6 should illustrate 2 things: The first is the red dashed line. This is illustrating that there are two fires here. One large fire and one small fire because they are NOT connected orthagonally. The highest Fire Maker of the group is rolled for.

The small Fire only consists of 1 Marker, so naturally it is the highest. The larger fire consists of multiple Fire Markers. In this case you would find the Marker that is the highest out of all the ones in that group and roll for it.

Criticism is fine with me. I'm happy to explain things that were unclear in the rules. I don't think you're "dennis"... people just think and understand things differently. I'm assuming you're real name is dennis and that was a joke at my expense. If so.. well done, sir... well done.

Ryuk · 02-17-2011, 03:07 AM

Excellent! Thank you! I've almost got it.
A couple more...

1) Can a Fire that is on the first floor spread to the second floor? My guess is 'yes', just want to be 'official'.
2) Using the same example on page 6... The Zombie player is about to roll to see if the highest Fire Marker in each Fire spreads. Fire A 's Intensity is 4 so he rolls for it first. (After he rolls for Fire A, he then gets to roll for each 3 Marker in Fire B). But when he rolls for Fire A, he gets a '4'. A Fire Marker is added to the board corresponding to where the 4 is pointing. (Above it.) So now Fire B has joined with Fire A! Does this now mean that the rolls for each 3 Marker in what used to be Fire B... are now cancelled?

Comments:
It took me a couple read throughs to catch that a Hero may only search a Rubble Marker if he rolls the number on the marker exactly. The whole time I thought it was 'may search if the hero rolls the number or higher. This seems kind of harsh to me. In your playtesting, did anyone ever succeed to roll to search?

I like how 'Townsfolk Event cards drawn from Rubble piles are considered dead and removed from the the game'. I smiled as I imagined finding T-Bone's burnt dead body and laughed as I kicked him once in the head before I moved on... stupid jock.
But that got me thinking, instead of simply 'removed from the game'... how about "Place a Zombie here" instead? Better yet, how about a Burnt-up-real-good Zombie? OK, let's make it a... Charred Zombie with the following:
A Charred Zombie is placed on the board if a Townsfolk Event card is found while searching a Rubble Marker or may be placed on a Rubble Marker Spawning pit during the Spawn Zombie phase.
A Charred Zombie has the following ability: During the Hero Turn, if a Hero Moves away from a Charred Zombie that he/she is in the same space as... the Charred Zombie also moves 1 space in the same direction as the Hero. (The Charred Zombie may move again during the Zombie turn, of course.)
Any comments on this idea?...

I am definitely buying the black Charred Zombies from the FFP webstore and they have you to thank!
I hope we see at least some more boards from you in the future! I think it's all incredible and can't thank you enough for all your efforts!

D153453D · 02-17-2011, 03:37 AM

1) yes

2) The fires are now joined. You don't roll for the others. You also don't have to roll that smaller fire first just becuase it is a 4. You can pick out any fire and roll for it.

You can modify if how you please. Finding a zombie in the Rubble is definately a solid option if you wish to change that.

As far as rolling EXACTLY the number. It is supposed to be rare in the sense that everything is all burnt and if you happened to find something that survived the fire it would be very lucky. I didn't make it easy because I wanted to create a sense of urgency if you failed to put out the fire... a penalty bascially. Initially it was a random 4+, 5+ etc...and I kept the random numbers on there in case people still wanted to play it that way. Of course you'd probably want to remove the lower numbers like 1,2, and 3.

Another variant I toyed with was rolling the EXACT number on a rubble token lets you pick up any card form the discard pile. That also worked and could be played that way. I did find that in some scenarios I actually tried to get back the discarded items that way and I didn't want people to go searching through the rubble that way. It worked, but I wanted people to use it as more of a last resort.

Please, post a picture to see how those boards came out. I just printed mine on hardstock, but I'd love to see how they came out.

I didn't know they had charred black zombies on FFP website. A word of caution though before you buy... Jason did mention on how the next expansion would include fire from IFOS along with some added features.

He didn't elaborate, and I didn't pry, but untill it makes an official announcment... I hope this fire will satisfy LNOE players until then.

Ryuk · 02-18-2011, 01:06 AM

Thanks again. I now feel confident that I understand your Fire rules and (repeating myself) I love the chain reaction effect similar to Pandemic.
I wholeheartedly agree with the 'Roll exactly to search' rule for the Rubble Markers. One shouldn't expect to find anything at all. I only meant to mention my overlooking the exactly part on my many read throughs in case someone else missed it also. And since it seems like a successful search would be rare... I was curious if it ever happened in your playtesting.
In hindsight, I think it would be very rare for any of my Charred Zombies to ever 'reach the surface', (Make a roll and draw a Townsfolk Event). It's just very seldom that I ever get any kind of what I think might be a cool variant idea. My thinking was that if one un-buries Charred Zombie Lizzy, she would be on you... and hard to shake off. It doesn't make much sense for a Charred Zombie to spawn out of one of the Rubble Marker Spawn Pits.
And I'm sorry if I've mislead you, but FFP only sells 'black' Zombies... purple ones too. I just thought it was a cool use/idea for the black ones and I'm still going to order a set with my next order from them.
And no pics from me as I don't have any camera. Not sure what your hardstock is... Is it much different than cardstock? This was my first ever printing adventure but the copies I got made at Office Max were, in my ignorant opinion, spectacular. I also got the Rulebook printed there also, (so as to not drain my inkcartridge) and it looks like it's 'storebought'! ? Is this laserprinting? What the hell do I know. This adventure has made me want to download some of the other senarios and character cards and have them printed up too.

D153453D · 02-18-2011, 01:38 AM

I'm glad you're okay with it now. Actually I haven't rolled the EXACT number since I tend to avoid them whenever possible, or I use my movment to stomp them out if they are near. I was able to search successfully when they were #+. Then again I always seem to roll very high numbers more often than not.

I wish I had thought of pandemic when thinking about the fire. I;m already thinking about what I could have done differnetly with your mere suggestion, lol.

Have fun gaming. Ask away if you need to.

iamadoorknob · (This post was last modified: 02-18-2011 06:12 PM by iamadoorknob.)

(02-11-2011 01:52 AM)D153453D Wrote:
(02-10-2011 06:23 PM)iamadoorknob Wrote: That still doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because by what you've just described, you could have an outlay like this:

XX|X
XH|X
XX|Z

With the X's being empty spaces, H is a hero, Z being the zombie, and the line being a red wall

so then, since the zombie can't climb up, it could instead move to any of the 8 radius spaces, like this?:

XX|X
XH|X
ZX|X

or even like this?:

ZX|X
XH|X
XX|X

Because the zombie is moving inside the zombie hunger radius in both of those instances.

It just doesn't make sense that the zombie couldn't get up, so he could suddenly appear in the building, on the other side of the hero. It also makes those second-story buildings a death trap because the zombie is guaranteed to make it inside and much more likely to trap the heroes than if they were in a normal building.

It makes sense, it's just not clicking with you.

Here a Z can only climb orthangonally, but oh no! The Hero is diagonal to the Z!

XX|X
XH|X
XX|Z

The Z does not have to position himself in front of the Hero in order the climb because it is still within Zombie Hunger. Instead the zombie climbs the wall in front of him, which is STILL IN THE RADIUS OF ZOMBIE HUNGER. The lucky Z rolls a 5.

XX|X
XH|X
XZ|X

Basically any move is legal within those 8 spaces. The only illegal move would be to LEAVE THE ZOMBIE HUNGER RADIUS.

No you cant just teleport the zombie anywhere in those 8 spaces. It has to be a legal move.

Make sense?

It makes sense now, but the rulebook is still unclear. You said

(02-11-2011 01:52 AM)D153453D Wrote: my rule states that a Zombie unable to reach the Hero (due to failed climbing, diagonal movement,etc..) allows a Zombie to move to any space within that 8 adjacent space radius (the Zombie Hunger Radius).

ANY space. That includes diagonal like the diagram I pointed out. The rules are still incredibly unclear.

Plus "any space" could mean that the zombie could climb through the red wall even if it fails a climb attempt, which defeats the whole purpose of the second stories.

D153453D · (This post was last modified: 02-21-2011 04:11 AM by D153453D.)

(02-18-2011 06:09 PM)iamadoorknob Wrote:
(02-11-2011 01:52 AM)D153453D Wrote:
(02-10-2011 06:23 PM)iamadoorknob Wrote: That still doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because by what you've just described, you could have an outlay like this:

XX|X
XH|X
XX|Z

With the X's being empty spaces, H is a hero, Z being the zombie, and the line being a red wall

so then, since the zombie can't climb up, it could instead move to any of the 8 radius spaces, like this?:

XX|X
XH|X
ZX|X

or even like this?:

ZX|X
XH|X
XX|X

Because the zombie is moving inside the zombie hunger radius in both of those instances.

It just doesn't make sense that the zombie couldn't get up, so he could suddenly appear in the building, on the other side of the hero. It also makes those second-story buildings a death trap because the zombie is guaranteed to make it inside and much more likely to trap the heroes than if they were in a normal building.

It makes sense, it's just not clicking with you.

Here a Z can only climb orthangonally, but oh no! The Hero is diagonal to the Z!

XX|X
XH|X
XX|Z

The Z does not have to position himself in front of the Hero in order the climb because it is still within Zombie Hunger. Instead the zombie climbs the wall in front of him, which is STILL IN THE RADIUS OF ZOMBIE HUNGER. The lucky Z rolls a 5.

XX|X
XH|X
XZ|X

Basically any move is legal within those 8 spaces. The only illegal move would be to LEAVE THE ZOMBIE HUNGER RADIUS.

No you cant just teleport the zombie anywhere in those 8 spaces. It has to be a legal move.

Make sense?

It makes sense now, but the rulebook is still unclear. You said

(02-11-2011 01:52 AM)D153453D Wrote: my rule states that a Zombie unable to reach the Hero (due to failed climbing, diagonal movement,etc..) allows a Zombie to move to any space within that 8 adjacent space radius (the Zombie Hunger Radius).

ANY space. That includes diagonal like the diagram I pointed out. The rules are still incredibly unclear.

Plus "any space" could mean that the zombie could climb through the red wall even if it fails a climb attempt, which defeats the whole purpose of the second stories.

Logic plays a part here. Why would you interpet is in such a manner: If you can't climb up then you can climb up anywhere? Whether unclear or not, you should use critical thinking.

iamadoorknob · 02-21-2011, 06:33 PM

(02-19-2011 01:30 AM)D153453D Wrote: Logic plays a part here. Why would you interpet is in such a manner: If you can't climb up then you can climb up anywhere? Whether unclear or not, you should use critical thinking.

Disagree with me if you like, but this game, as a whole, is complicated enough without having to interpret what the rules mean. The rules have to be written letter-of-the-law. Otherwise, there will just be arguments among the players.